Francis Thompson and the Jack the Ripper Pattern Murder.

[Richard Patterson]

Yawn!

Nobody loves me.

Your Triangles are another mans arrows, so WHAT.

Saint Days Triangles, didn't someone else recently tie it all into Michaelmas.

If you showed that the murder locations on a map could make an arrow, I would ask so what. But if you showed that an existing suspect had an arrow carved on his gravestone, and that this same suspect wrote that arrows were integral to his belief system and used it as a recurring theme in his written texts, I would say that it was an interesting point you were making. This is what I am saying about Thompson in regard to the Vesica Pisces. You can go back to sleep now.

[Richard Patterson]

Did Francis Thompson know Ernest Dowson?

Good question. Thanks for showing an interest. Yes Thompson did know Earnest Dowson, though not very well. They both attended the Rhymers Club meetings with W.B Yeats. Thompson and Dowson sat next to each other.

[Richard Patterson]

Richard, some current theorists can't even place their suspects in England, never mind in London. With the rail access to the East End it really doesn't matter where in London Thompson was. So long as he had easy access to the East End, and clearly he did, then that is sufficient.



He could just as easily have read about the place, if you can't place him there by his own words or the words of others, then I would not try to massage the issue. It will look like you are forcing it.

The biggest problem I recall was this business about him being in a hospital at the time of the Kelly murder. That really needs clearing up (unless I missed it? - sorry if that is the case).
That was really the only impediment I remember at the moment.

That Thompson was in any hospital is hearsay by Wilfrid Meynell. No biographer has found any proof he was in a hospital. No details were ever given, including the name of the hospital, his dates of entry and leaving, or his attending doctor. If he was placed in hospital it would probably be between the middle of November 1888 until the end of December.

[Richard Patterson]

Richard,

It would be interesting to see your 1888 chronology for Thompson - if it's not too much trouble.

Gary

Here is a chronology of Thompson during the time of the Ripper murders. These dates were sourced from biographies on Thompson including Walsh’s 1967, ‘Strange Harp Strange Symphony. The Life of Francis Thompson.’ Everard Meynell’s 1913 biography & Bridget Boardman’s biography, ‘Between Heaven and Charring Cross. The Life of Francis Thompson.’

On February the 23rd, 1887, Thompson first dropped three poems and an essay on Paganism into Wilfrid Meynell’s letterbox. Meynell found the package and placed it, unopened in a pigeonhole in his office and did not open it until the middle of June.

When he did he read the package’s accompanying letter that told, ‘…for me, no less than Parolles, the dirty nurse experience has something fouled…. Kindly address your rejection to the Charing Cross Post Office.' Parrolles was a character from Shakespeare’s, ‘All's Well That Ends Well’. He was a coward, a liar and a braggart. He is exposed and shamed as someone who pretends to be a great soldier. Thompson’s also included his macabre ‘Nightmare of the Witch Babies’ about a knight who roams the night seeking out witch-women so that could slice their stomachs open and extract their unborn. At this point, apart from knowing Thompson was living a rough near destitute existence. Wilfrid Meynell could know nothing else about him. This was four months after Thompson had delivered it. By now Thompson, not receiving a reply, believed that his package had been simply been tossed aside. Thompson had ceased enquiring at the Charing Cross post office for a response. So when Meynell wrote a letter asking that Thompson see the proofs of one of his poems and the Paganism essay for publishing, it was returned by October 1887 as unclaimed.

Six months after opening the package, in April 1888, Meynell, assuming that by now Thompson, who had never again tried to make contact with him, had died on the streets, published his poem, ‘The Passion of Mary’. One of his readers was a priest named father John Carroll. He was a friend of Thompson’s family. Carroll wrote to Meynell giving him details on Thompson’s background and circumstances. Carroll also made contact with Thompson and told him one of his poems had been published.

On April 14. Another letter arrived at Meynell’s office, in which Thompson wrote, 'Dear Sir-...I forwarded to you for your magazine a prose article...and accompanied it by some of the verse...To be brief, from that day to this, no answer has ever come into my hands...I am now informed that one of the copies of verse...is appearing in this month’s issue.’ Thompson probably wrote this letter from the Chelsea rooms of the prostitute he was then seeing.

Thompson gave his postal address as a chemist in Drury Lane. Meynell approached the chemist and he was told that the poet still owed money for his previous purchases of opium. Wilfrid paid Thompson's debts and asked the chemist to direct Thompson to contact him at his “Merry England” office. When, a month later, Thompson failed to respond, Wilfrid Meynell continued to publish Thompson's poems with “Dream Tryst” in May. In that same month a threadbare shirtless Thompson first met Meynell at his office. Meynell offered to pay him a weekly sum of money, but Thompson refused and once more went back to the streets. On the 25th of May Thompson’s uncle, who had also read Thompson’s work in Meynell’s magazine, wrote to Meynell giving him a full history on Thompson. In June Meynell published Thompson’s essay on Paganism. During June and July Thompson continued to visit Meynell at his office and his home where he bathed and cleaned himself up. He refused offers of accommodation and stayed on the streets. What Meynell did not know was that Thompson had been in a relationship with a prostitute and that in June she had threatened to leave Thompson when returned to her and told her that he now a published poet. She had since ‘vanished’. During this time Thompson was, probably with urgings by Meynell, largely withdrawing from opium,

By the time of the August 31 Bucks Row murder Meynell had in his possession Thompson’s horrid murder poem and Father Carroll and Thompson’s uncle had informed him that Thompson was living on the streets and had trained as a surgeon. Of all the 5 murders the first August 31 one have been the easiest for Thompson/the Ripper to commit. Firstly the fear of the Ripper had not yet taken hold on the streets, so prostitutes where not alarmed or wary. Secondly that Saturday night had been a poor trading night. The nearby dock fire had drawn away the Whitechapel crowds as well as the H Division police. This left Whitechapel with police from other divisions patrolling streets unfamiliar to them and prostitutes being less picky in their choice of customer. For Thompson on that night more than any other, what he needed was not just fine clothes but some money in his hand. He had more than enough cash to convince Mary Nichols to walk into Bucks Row with him. Meynell had already paid him. Other money Thompson may have possessed included an overly large tip by a banker and there is also the ‘Miracle of the Halfpennies’. This was his lucky find of 2 golden sovereigns rolling in a gutter. Father Carroll had also, as an act of charity, given money to Thompson.

By September the 8th Thompson, no longer in rags, would have been able to approach his second victim, Annie Chapmen, with money in pocket and little worry she would reject him. Meynell had even paid Thompson to buy a new suit. This would have made him appear more decent and attractive to the victims. When Thompson returned to Meynell exhausted, in what would have been probably mid-November, this could be when he was placed in the private hospital that Meynell makes mention of, when he noted it in the margins of the manuscript his son Everard Meynell wrote for his, 1913 ‘Life of Francis Thompson’. His father’s note of ‘Six weeks my son!’ would cover the timespan of md-November till the end of December. It was in January 1889, at the earliest, that we find Thompson staying at the country priory in Storrington.

[Pcdunn]

Links and information on Francis Thompson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Thompson

He was a handsome young man, to judge from his portrait!
He died of TB at the age of 47.

Pat D.

[MrBarnett]

Richard,

Thank you for the chronology. I must admit I was hoping for a few more dates and something that explicitly links Thompson to Whitechapel in late '88.

I'm not sure what point you are making about the Nichols murder. Are you suggesting that Neil, Thain and Mizen were walking unfamiliar beats that night?

Gary

[Amanda Sumner]

Yawn!

Nobody loves me.

Your Triangles are another mans arrows, so WHAT.

Saint Days Triangles, didn't someone else recently tie it all into Michaelmas.

Hi Gut,
Is it necessary to be so rude? It's one thing to make an enquiry if one is interested enough, but quite another to be openly hostile. I, myself, have brought this subject up to Richard, politely.
My mother always taught me that if you have nothing polite to say, say nothing at all :-)

Amanda

[Dane_F]

Just to clarify a few things. I've been here a lot longer than since last year. My original posts date back to before the server crash if I'm not mistaken. At least as far back as 01-03. I simply took a break from the casebook since I was in high school and eventually college and felt satisfied with my knowledge at the time. Over the years I forgot my log in information and would only read and not post. Tom's book is what caused me to start posting again.

Also, when I said "until recent he wasn't on my radar" I meant as far as being a viable suspect that I thought had a shot. It was in the plethora of 3/5 posts that I started noticing and really reading about him.

As far this thread goes it seems clear Richard wants to proceed with this line of reasoning. That's certainly fine for him to do. I hope though you understand Richard it just pushes others away.

I tried my best to pay a compliment to your suspect Richard. He is one of the few I see as viable. Please understand not posting =/= ignoring. However, If you are upset others have not posted in your other more sensible threads, never fear, I will also abstain from posting in this one as well. I certainly wouldn't want to add importance to this one as I think it is the one that should be ignored. That must surely be your goal with have you have responded to us.

[GUT]

Hi Gut,
Is it necessary to be so rude? It's one thing to make an enquiry if one is interested enough, but quite another to be openly hostile. I, myself, have brought this subject up to Richard, politely.
My mother always taught me that if you have nothing polite to say, say nothing at all :-)

Amanda

Well you see Amanda I too had raised with Richard multiple times that he was taking a good suspect and layering him in BS, he chose to ignore those comments.

As for your perception that I am rude, you are welcome to it.

I must have been raised different to you as I was taught to be honest and when I sw BS call it BS, not sweet fertilizer.

If you don't lke my posts or tone, you are welcome to ignore them.

[Wickerman]

That Thompson was in any hospital is hearsay by Wilfrid Meynell. No biographer has found any proof he was in a hospital. No details were ever given, including the name of the hospital, his dates of entry and leaving, or his attending doctor. If he was placed in hospital it would probably be between the middle of November 1888 until the end of December.

Thankyou Richard, so the issue is, what was Meynell's source, and how accurate was it?
Fair enough.

[Mayerling]

Excuse me if I ask a kind of unrelated question Mr. Patterson, but by any chance was Thompson acquainted with any of the few then published poems of Gerald Manley Hopkins? Hopkins, as you may know, died in 1889. Most of his poetry did not get published until the 1920s, but some poems (including, I believe, "The Wreck of the Deutschland") were published in his lifetime.

Jeff

[Richard Patterson]

Thankyou Richard, so the issue is, what was Meynell's source, and how accurate was it?
Fair enough.

The Meynell's source is solely the Meynells. My pure guess is that if there was a 'hospital' it was in actuality the Meynell home. With Thompson cared for a family doctor. In that case. Thompson could have come and gone as he pleased.

[Richard Patterson]

Excuse me if I ask a kind of unrelated question Mr. Patterson, but by any chance was Thompson acquainted with any of the few then published poems of Gerald Manley Hopkins? Hopkins, as you may know, died in 1889. Most of his poetry did not get published until the 1920s, but some poems (including, I believe, "The Wreck of the Deutschland") were published in his lifetime.

Jeff

I don't believe he became acquainted with the works of Hokins until after 1894. Thompson became familiar with the works of Hopkins through his friendship with Coventry Patmore. Although Thompson did not chance to meet Hopkins he did review one at least one poem of Hopkins called 'Heaven Haven'. This short lyric poem was published as part of an anthology of verse published in 1902.

[Richard Patterson]

Richard,

Thank you for the chronology. I must admit I was hoping for a few more dates and something that explicitly links Thompson to Whitechapel in late '88.

I'm not sure what point you are making about the Nichols murder. Are you suggesting that Neil, Thain and Mizen were walking unfamiliar beats that night?

Gary

Whitechapel was an area normally covered by H Division police. PC Mizen was from H division, but because of the dock fire both PC Neil & PC Thain were called in from Bethnal Green's J Division. The routes patrolled by PC Neil and PC Thain were unfamiliar to them. Even PC Mizen might have been switched from his regular beat that night.

[MayBea]

!

,,,I was taught to be honest and when I sw BS call it BS, not sweet fertilizer.

It took me a couple of hours but I finally found an Australian criminal with a VP, at least a VP in the logo of his church affiliation. Of course, it's an American church.

Aussies seem to be different geo-politically (that's geographically and geometrically!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Michael_Rohan