Francis Thompson and the Jack the Ripper Pattern Murder.

[Pcdunn]

It's an hourglass, not an 8

I'm sorry. But the "figure 8" you've drawn that apparently depicts JtR's path (assuming he did indeed kill Stride) looks **nothing** like a vesica piscis. It's not even close.

And were the points you've includrd that other shape equidistant?

I agree with the above. Your diagram depicts an hourglass made with triangles, not two intertwined circles or an figure eight.
You need to lay off the "Da Vinci Code" stuff, Richard. Great fiction, not so great for murder theories.

[Richard Patterson]

In this Jack the Ripper murder pattern thread. I have shown clearly and simply that by following the cardinal compass points from one murder to the next draws a figure 8, which in its most simple, two dimensional form would be displayed as two triangles meeting at their apex. I have also shown that this piece of symmetry is represented as the central motif for my suspect. For those who struggle with comprehension, I have included easy to follow diagrams and simple images. I have also demonstrated that my suspect proscribed to the compass directions as part of a theological evolution in religious worship. It would not matter if the pattern I were discussing was the Vesica Pisces, an hourglass, a wine glass, or the southern cross, or an arrow. If the shape could be found to match the ideals of a known Ripper suspect it should be investigated. Of course people can make many shapes by connecting the dots, but the point is the shape I have depicted has to do with my suspect. This alone does not prove he is the Ripper. He could have committed no crimes and at the most been inspired by a shape that can be represented in the crimes or it could be simply a coincidence. But to dismiss it readily without looking more closely at other aspects of this man is at the best the ‘silly angle’ rather than the scope of this thread

Dane_F wrote on post #30
‘Bring facts and evidence and I can promise you, people will take it far more seriously than this.’

No. I’m sorry, but I don’t believe on this site that facts and evidence are taken seriously. I think they are ignored. This is shown by my receiving no response for post #42 on the thread ‘Francis Thompson. The Perfect Suspect’. Post #42 details his medical training and the Virchow method of pathology in relation to the murders. Although showing the strongest connection of any suspect yet to the crimes nobody on Casebook has any real interest. I could write more on the things that mattered, such as how Thompson was most likely living in Whitechapel. Or that was carrying a knife. I could detail his strong motive by being rejected by a prostitute who he had a yearlong affair with. I could give more evidence to show how his appearance and dress matches witness descriptions.

But, and I think it is pathetic in its sadness, the people on Casebook will instead, for the most part, write response to this Vesica Pisces murder pattern thread. The posts that I put up that discuss the more outlandish if true propositions are the ones that attract attention. In my opinion I can see why. They provide the best place where those people who get a perverse thrill in deriding others can run riot and under the guise of the educated, poor scorn on any new idea. This is why I know people will continue posting on this thread. Rather than ones that bring ‘facts’ and ‘evidence’

Such a state of affairs is not any one person’s fault and it not due to any conscious decision. It’s simply the inevitable outcome. With each passing year, as the weight of information and contribution continues to grow so does the disease of negativity and doubt also take hold. Why? Because to members and outsiders it becomes more and more evident that members would rather luxuriate in the case than solve it. If not, then as each year passes and the wealth of information this site compiles continues to grow, the more elusive the Ripper seems. Or is it the more incompetent its members appear to be? An elusive suspect would not explain the vitriol and feigned expertise presented by most responses to those who dare to give the Ripper a name, so it can only be that its members instead resort to sarcasm having nothing else meaningful to contribute.

[MrBarnett]

Richard,

What evidence is there that Thompson was in Whitechapel in the Autumn of '88?

I've only read Walsh and his take on it is that Thompson's spell in lodging houses was from late '87 to early '88. He was rescued from that life by his prostitute friend who took him to her flat in Chelsea for a few months, but then abandoned him once he had made contact with the Meynells. The suggestion is that it was a sacrifice on the girl's part, she did not want to get in the way of his literary career. Thompson does not seem to have borne her any ill will for leaving him.

Walsh has him searching for the girl in August and September, presumably in the West End and Chelsea, and finally giving up all hope of finding her in early October.

Has Walsh got his dates wrong? If not, I don't see Thompson as someone 'down on whores' and in Whitechapel between August and November '88.

Gary

[Richard Patterson]

Richard,

What evidence is there that Thompson was in Whitechapel in the Autumn of '88?

I've only read Walsh and his take on it is that Thompson's spell in lodging houses was from late '87 to early '88. He was rescued from that life by his prostitute friend who took him to her flat in Chelsea for a few months, but then abandoned him once he had made contact with the Meynells. The suggestion is that it was a sacrifice on the girl's part, she did not want to get in the way of his literary career. Thompson does not seem to have borne her any ill will for leaving him.

Walsh has him searching for the girl in August and September, presumably in the West End and Chelsea, and finally giving up all hope of finding her in early October.

Has Walsh got his dates wrong? If not, I don't see Thompson as someone 'down on whores' and in Whitechapel between August and November '88.

Gary

First I am using terms carefully here so I used the words ‘most likely living in Whitechapel’. Walsh does not have his dates wrong. I have written a chronology of Thompson in 1888, and I’m happy to share it if you ask for it. To be brief, Canon John Carroll alerted Thompson to the publication of his first poem, in April 1888. This Catholic priest was a friend of the family, but until April 1888, did not keep in touch with Thompson. In June 1888, Thompson’s prostitute abandoned him and vanished. That same month Meynell paid Thompson for his poems and essay and offered to find him lodging, however Thompson refuse and insisted he stay on the streets. It is said he had given up hope of finding her in October, though he did not leave the streets until, at the least, the middle of November. It is true that Thompson was probably actively seeking his prostitute in the West End, but what points to Thompson staying at the Providence Row Shelter was that unlike other shelters, Providence Row, was a Catholic friendly shelter that restricted its clientele. If I may quote here the Casebook dissertation on this refuge,

‘The rules provided that "no vagrants, tramps or professional beggars should be admitted even for one night… All persons seeking accommodation were supposed to give the names of referees to whom inquiries could be made, and if the replies were unsatisfactory the applicant was told to leave.’

This only allowed for people who had some form of income. Providence Row was non-denominational, but the charity that ran it was the Catholic Sister’s of Mercy. His friend Canon Carroll, or fellow Catholic Wilfrid Meynell, who had worked as a volunteer himself at refuges, could have provided Thompson, an ex seminary student with a reference stating he was now employed as writer. In this case he would have been made most welcome at Providence Row. Thompson himself spoke highly of Providence Row in his essay on the life of St. Ignatius. To sum up, Thompson favored this refuge and it is likely he stayed there, at the time of the Whitechapel murders.

[Dane_F]

Just because people are not posting in those threads does not mean they aren't getting read. Thompson was not on my radar as recent as a few days ago. Since then I've spent numerous hours reading over those threads looking at the points for and against him. I personally feel he is a viable option. I don't post in those threads because I have nothing I can possibly add to them. Instead I read and think.

A thread like this does more harm than help your point with him I can promise you. People can find things in all types of stuff if they look hard enough, stetch reasonableness just enough, and wiggle truths just enough.

There was a man that years ago claimed there were hidden messages in the bible. Many people who challenged him said you can find messages in any book. So he issued them a challenge. Find the message of the birth of Jesus in Moby Dick. They found not only the message for the Birth of Jesus, but also foretelling Adolfo Hitler, and JFKs assassination.

Taking a sensational angle with your otherwise solid suspect does nothing but harm him. You might as well add Free Masons, the Prince, and the supernatural once you start going down this path.

You can't expect people to all agree on your suspect because you have no smoking gun. You have laid out a great case for how he fits the profile if only the canonical 5 were victims of JTR. But without being able to even tie him to Whitechapel the best he can be is a solid suspect. Hoping to have a "case closed" off of the evidence is just ridiculous. That's why people are continuing to discuss this case. There is no definitive proof for it being closed.

The worst crime is assuming your suspect is not being considered and that your information is not being read. It is. It's not being discussed because what more can be said until new evidence is found?

[Pcdunn]

I agree wholeheartedly with Dane's excellent post.

Thompson does have a lot of things going for him as a suspect. But I've become rather irritated with Richard's attempts to find him killing to a pattern, whether related to the patron saint days of certain occupations, or the all-too-familiar geometry of designs in the locations of the murders, which has shown up before in Ripperlogy.
Yes, the more outlandish aspects of this theory do produce more comment, and that is to be expected. I don't think you need to ascribe to the poor man more genius than his poetry demonstrates, to have him try to fit his murders into a complex schematic, in the effort to produce the additional "new" evidence Dale mentions.
As for the intertwined crowns of laurels and thorns on Thompson's tombstone, I think that is a fitting and touching tribute to a man who won both glory and experienced great suffering during his lifetime.

[Amanda Sumner]

Some very sensible posts. I think Francis Thompson is a very solid suspect and does have a lot going for him. I also agree that too many angles can confuse the main points and those points seem to point to Francis being possibly the murderer, in my opinion. All the evidence is circumstantial but there is no doubt in my mind that he is one of the strongest contenders put forward recently. We are a long way from being "case closed" and until there is definitive proof it will probably always remain so, but I'm glad it is being sensibly discussed here. I've almost finished Richard's book and there is no doubt the extent of this man's research. I really wish him the best and encourage him to continue looking into it.

[Scott Nelson]

Did Francis Thompson know Ernest Dowson?

[GUT]

I agree wholeheartedly with Dane's excellent post.

Thompson does have a lot of things going for him as a suspect. But I've become rather irritated with Richard's attempts to find him killing to a pattern, whether related to the patron saint days of certain occupations, or the all-too-familiar geometry of designs in the locations of the murders, which has shown up before in Ripperlogy.
Yes, the more outlandish aspects of this theory do produce more comment, and that is to be expected. I don't think you need to ascribe to the poor man more genius than his poetry demonstrates, to have him try to fit his murders into a complex schematic, in the effort to produce the additional "new" evidence Dale mentions.
As for the intertwined crowns of laurels and thorns on Thompson's tombstone, I think that is a fitting and touching tribute to a man who won both glory and experienced great suffering during his lifetime.

The Facts, just give us the facts.

Richard wants to over egg the pudding, with Saints Days and Patterns, next there'll be table cloths with DNA.

[Wickerman]

Sensible feedback, ladies & gentlemen.

Speaking as a customer, essentially that is what the reader is.
I totally agree, there is too much icing being put on this cake.
Please Richard, stick with the meat & potatoes, the real solid tangible "evidence".
I had never considered Thompson much before Richard came forward recently, and I admitted then, that there are certain details which do make him a reasonable suspect.
Descending into geometrical hocus-pocus is cheapening the theory, it is making him a laughing stock, in my opinion. We have already had "vesica piscis" introduced with a couple of earlier 'fringe' suspects - really, it doesn't go over well.

The customer is always right Richard

[Wickerman]

First I am using terms carefully here so I used the words ‘most likely living in Whitechapel’. Walsh does not have his dates wrong. I have written a chronology of Thompson in 1888, and I’m happy to share it if you ask for it.

Richard, some current theorists can't even place their suspects in England, never mind in London. With the rail access to the East End it really doesn't matter where in London Thompson was. So long as he had easy access to the East End, and clearly he did, then that is sufficient.

Thompson himself spoke highly of Providence Row in his essay on the life of St. Ignatius. To sum up, Thompson favored this refuge and it is likely he stayed there, at the time of the Whitechapel murders.

He could just as easily have read about the place, if you can't place him there by his own words or the words of others, then I would not try to massage the issue. It will look like you are forcing it.

The biggest problem I recall was this business about him being in a hospital at the time of the Kelly murder. That really needs clearing up (unless I missed it? - sorry if that is the case).
That was really the only impediment I remember at the moment.

[MayBea]

Fact is: Geo-profilers "triangulate" the unknown suspects residence, place of work and recreation area (pub) based on the crime scenes. Local theory almost depends on a triangulation.

http://www.popcenter.org/learning/60...cs/step_16.gif

However, the residence, workplace and pub should be on the points of the triangle and the crimes on or around the lines or inside or outside the triangle.

You're also not supposed to have two triangles.

"Outsider theory"?

[MrBarnett]

First I am using terms carefully here so I used the words ‘most likely living in Whitechapel’. Walsh does not have his dates wrong. I have written a chronology of Thompson in 1888, and I’m happy to share it if you ask for it. To be brief, Canon John Carroll alerted Thompson to the publication of his first poem, in April 1888. This Catholic priest was a friend of the family, but until April 1888, did not keep in touch with Thompson. In June 1888, Thompson’s prostitute abandoned him and vanished. That same month Meynell paid Thompson for his poems and essay and offered to find him lodging, however Thompson refuse and insisted he stay on the streets. It is said he had given up hope of finding her in October, though he did not leave the streets until, at the least, the middle of November. It is true that Thompson was probably actively seeking his prostitute in the West End, but what points to Thompson staying at the Providence Row Shelter was that unlike other shelters, Providence Row, was a Catholic friendly shelter that restricted its clientele. If I may quote here the Casebook dissertation on this refuge,

‘The rules provided that "no vagrants, tramps or professional beggars should be admitted even for one night… All persons seeking accommodation were supposed to give the names of referees to whom inquiries could be made, and if the replies were unsatisfactory the applicant was told to leave.’

This only allowed for people who had some form of income. Providence Row was non-denominational, but the charity that ran it was the Catholic Sister’s of Mercy. His friend Canon Carroll, or fellow Catholic Wilfrid Meynell, who had worked as a volunteer himself at refuges, could have provided Thompson, an ex seminary student with a reference stating he was now employed as writer. In this case he would have been made most welcome at Providence Row. Thompson himself spoke highly of Providence Row in his essay on the life of St. Ignatius. To sum up, Thompson favored this refuge and it is likely he stayed there, at the time of the Whitechapel murders.

Richard,

It would be interesting to see your 1888 chronology for Thompson - if it's not too much trouble.

Gary

[Richard Patterson]

Posting on Casebook is often fraught with difficulty, the negativity. The point I make is that, with my suspect at least, posts that show evidence and facts are largely ignored while posts that display conjecture become the hunting ground for members who make derision of others as sick kind of sport. This is backed up by Dane_F, who states in post #35, ‘Just because people are not posting in those threads does not mean they aren't getting read.’ Reading and not responding is ignoring. Now this poster has only been a member since last year so when he states ‘Thompson was not on my radar as recent as a few days ago.’ it is understandable he might know of him, but Thompson has been listed as a suspect here for more than a decade now. In that time only a handful of posters have shown an interest or posted new information on him.

I am accused of doing harm to my theory that Thompson was the Ripper, by posting a thread that describes him and sacred geometry in relation to the crimes. Anyone who writes this shows how little know about him, even after all this time. Thompson held a life-long interest in the subject and a symbol sacred to him, the Vesica Pisces, can be made upon a map of the Ripper crimes. Using cardinal compass headings that match his belief system of changing directions of religious worship through history.

The fact is Thompson was intensely interested in the occult, mysticism, and numerology. To not mention these things on the forum on him would be ridiculous. I am warned off mentioning such things as the Freemasons in connection to Thompson even though anyone who has read a good biography on Thompson knows his radical and fanatical views on this order. Posters promise I perform no good in promoting my suspect by discussing such things as Freemasonry, him and the crimes, but this forum on my suspect is not about convincing people of Thompson’s guilt. It is about describing him. Thompson claimed he saw fairies, he says he encountered more than one ghost. He believed in demons. To leave these themes out of a thread on Thompson might help me avoid accusations of taking ‘silly angles’ but it would be an injustice to him and members of Casebook. To illustrate this and of course be accused of being ‘sensational’., I will dwell on the Ripper murders, Thompson & Freemasonry.

Many of those heading the police force and leading the Whitechapel murder investigation were Protestants and members of the Freemasons. These people included the Head of the force Police Commissioner Sir Warren who as well as being a member, conducted research for the society. Dr Robert Anderson who upon his return from Switzerland was placed as head of the investigation was a Freemason. Coroner to the murder inquests Wynne Edwin Baxter was a Freemason of the South Sussex Lodge. In 1888 it was easy to find people with a grudge with the Freemasons. Pope Leo XIII reflected the view of many Catholics in the 19th century on Freemasonry in his 1884 encyclical. His eight thousand-word paper named "Humanum Genus" argued against the doctrine of Freemasonry and said in part,

'The race of man, after its miserable fall from God, the Creator and the Giver of heavenly gifts, "through the envy of the devil," separated into two diverse and opposite parts...one is the kingdom of God... The other is the kingdom of Satan...At this period, however, the partisans of evil seems to be combining together and to be struggling with united vehemence, led on or assisted by that strongly organized and widespread association called the Freemasons. No longer making any secret of their purposes, they are now boldly rising up against God Himself... it is Our office to point out the danger, to mark who are the adversaries and to the best of Our power to make head against their plans and devices...the sect of Freemasons grew with a rapidity beyond conception in the course of a century and a half, until it came to be able, by means of fraud or of audacity, to gain such entrance into every rank of the State as to seem to be almost its ruling power. ...For these reasons We no sooner came to the helm of the Church than We clearly saw and felt it to be Our duty to use Our authority to the very utmost against so vast an evil.'

Francis Thompson hated the Freemasons. In his later years, Thompson began to gather data on the Freemasons. His aim was to expose what he saw as ‘a history of hidden evil’ that had ‘left its ruthless fingerprints on the wrist of history’. Although his notes and a manuscript for a book he hoped to publish on is believed to have been destroyed by his editor, we do some things about it. This is through Elizabeth Blackburn, as associate of Thompson. She told,

‘As to the Freemasonry notes I imagine that could be collated and disentangled to prove at least more than interesting. His plan, often discussed was to begin with the Gnostics, go down through the Templars and other military orders – till. Reaching the Reformation period and the Rosicrucians, with the French revolution, modern Masonry in its mischievous Continental attitude stood clearly revealed. How much or how little he wrote I of course don’t know. At first I took slight notice, but as he went on he showed a wonderful appreciation of what lawyers call “evidence” – and it was surprising to see how he fitted in the pieces – more puzzling than any jig-saw – to make a perfect picture=’

Now just because Thompson, a fervent Catholic, might have been striking out at the ‘establishment’ with these murders and it could be a further motive that we can attribute to him. I have never said case closed. All I ask is that even if people here do not take me seriously they should take Thompson. No doubt even saying this will ‘irritate’ some readers here as I have done when I looked at saint days and the murders. To me examining the saint days in relation to the crimes makes perfect sense with a suspect who wrote on the saints and trained as a Catholic priest. Until members bother to perform their own research on Thompson remarks about me writing about ‘hocus pocus’ will continue. Though who should be surprised when new ideas are not met with curiosity and fact checking here, but irritation, dismissal and disrespect.

[GUT]

Yawn!

Nobody loves me.

Your Triangles are another mans arrows, so WHAT.

Saint Days Triangles, didn't someone else recently tie it all into Michaelmas.