Proof that Thompson was living in Whitechapel, just off Dorset Street.

[Wickerman]

...That the killer had medical knowledge was assumed by at least one of the doctors who testified at the inquests. We all agree that the killer knew how to use a knife and remove organs. Thompson had such knowledge. Whether Thompson had medical knowledge is not the main point here, only that he would have been able to make the mutilations....

Whether individual members believe the killer had medical knowledge or not is immaterial, none of us are sufficiently experienced in the medical field to form an educated opinion.
However, one member did post here not too long ago who was trained as a dissector of anatomy, typically for training purposes in medical schools, hospitals, etc. He explained to the group what certain cuts suggested, and why they were done the way they were and, what some expressions used by the medical men meant.
This is the kind of experience that benefits the group.

While some still maintain this killer was not medically trained, it is the inside knowledge that this previous poster shared with us that puts the question really beyond dispute.
To what extent this killer was trained is still debatable, but the fact he was, must be reasonably accepted.

[Richard Patterson]

Whether individual members believe the killer had medical knowledge or not is immaterial, none of us are sufficiently experienced in the medical field to form an educated opinion.
However, one member did post here not too long ago who was trained as a dissector of anatomy, typically for training purposes in medical schools, hospitals, etc. He explained to the group what certain cuts suggested, and why they were done the way they were and, what some expressions used by the medical men meant.
This is the kind of experience that benefits the group.

While some still maintain this killer was not medically trained, it is the inside knowledge that this previous poster shared with us that puts the question really beyond dispute.
To what extent this killer was trained is still debatable, but the fact he was, must be reasonably accepted.

I quote here what I wrote in another thread, but I think it has bearing in this discussion. What is of particular interest is how what seemed to Bond to be senseless mutilation may have been a demonstration of medical techniques he was unfamiliar with,

Dr Frederick Gordon Brown, the doctor who gave evidence at the inquest for Ripper victim, Catherine Eddowes, replied when asked if the killer possessed great anatomical skill,

"A good deal of knowledge as to the positions of the organs in the abdominal cavity and the way of removing them."

Dr. Bond concluded that the ripper was not a medical man for what he thought were very good reasons. He said,

"In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific nor anatomical knowledge. In my opinion he does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals…The instrument must have been … a butcher's knife or a surgeon's knife… [the murderer would] probably be solitary and eccentric in his habits, also he is most likely to be a man without regular occupation, but with some small income or pension…all five murders no doubt were committed by the same hand,"

Dr. Bond came to these conclusions based on his observation of how the victims were taken down, also their wounds, mutilations and the removal of their organs. None of it suggested any method. Things such as the way the killer had cut out Kelly’s heart straight from the pericardium showed to him less skill than cat meat butcher.

This was probably because 47-year-old Doctor Bond had not been introduced to the Virchow method. This was a new method of dissection from Germany. It required the removal of the heart via the pericardium. This was the then completely new technique that was taught exclusively in Thompson’s student college and medical infirmary. From 1878 to 1883 Thompson studied to be a surgeon at Manchester’s Owens Medical College. Thompson also trained at Manchester’s Royal Infirmary. Francis Thompson’s lecturer of pathology and his infirmary director was Doctor Julius Dreschfeld. He had just returned from Germany where he was a pupil Rudolf Virchow. Having learned the Virchow method, Dreschfeld taught in Thompson’s classes and on the field. Dreschfeld was seen as an authority on the method and was instrumental in introducing it to England.'

[GUT]

I quote here what I wrote in another thread, but I think it has bearing in this discussion. What is of particular interest is how what seemed to Bond to be senseless mutilation may have been a demonstration of medical techniques he was unfamiliar with,

Dr Frederick Gordon Brown, the doctor who gave evidence at the inquest for Ripper victim, Catherine Eddowes, replied when asked if the killer possessed great anatomical skill,

"A good deal of knowledge as to the positions of the organs in the abdominal cavity and the way of removing them."

Dr. Bond concluded that the ripper was not a medical man for what he thought were very good reasons. He said,

"In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific nor anatomical knowledge. In my opinion he does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals…The instrument must have been … a butcher's knife or a surgeon's knife… [the murderer would] probably be solitary and eccentric in his habits, also he is most likely to be a man without regular occupation, but with some small income or pension…all five murders no doubt were committed by the same hand,"

Dr. Bond came to these conclusions based on his observation of how the victims were taken down, also their wounds, mutilations and the removal of their organs. None of it suggested any method. Things such as the way the killer had cut out Kelly’s heart straight from the pericardium showed to him less skill than cat meat butcher.

This was probably because 47-year-old Doctor Bond had not been introduced to the Virchow method. This was a new method of dissection from Germany. It required the removal of the heart via the pericardium. This was the then completely new technique that was taught exclusively in Thompson’s student college and medical infirmary. From 1878 to 1883 Thompson studied to be a surgeon at Manchester’s Owens Medical College. Thompson also trained at Manchester’s Royal Infirmary. Francis Thompson’s lecturer of pathology and his infirmary director was Doctor Julius Dreschfeld. He had just returned from Germany where he was a pupil Rudolf Virchow. Having learned the Virchow method, Dreschfeld taught in Thompson’s classes and on the field. Dreschfeld was seen as an authority on the method and was instrumental in introducing it to England.'

So at least 5 years after the method was taught to Thomspon Bond was still not aware of it?

I have some trouble with that explanation.

I'm not saying that Bond was right or wrong, just that the explanation is not real strong in my opinion.

[Roy Corduroy]

Providence Row Night Refuge (click)

" It provided accommodation for 300 women and children, and 50 men, as well as a convent for the Sisters of Mercy who ran the refuge."

Richard, I'm trying to picture the night refuge run by the Sisters of Mercy as a favorable place for Jack the Ripper to use as a bolt hole to sally forth into the neighborhood, commit these ghastly crimes, and return to. In the dead of the night.

And I ask myself, what's wrong with this picture? I envision the Catholic sisters as exercising tight control over the premises and the comings and goings. It being a 'night refuge" you come there to seek refuge for the night. The night comes, you're in. You're not in and out, you're in, snug as a bug in a rug.

Roy

[Richard Patterson]

So at least 5 years after the method was taught to Thomspon Bond was still not aware of it?

I have some trouble with that explanation.

I'm not saying that Bond was right or wrong, just that the explanation is not real strong in my opinion.

The Virchow method told of removal of the heart via the pericardium. This is what Bond found in his examination of Kelly. If Bond knew of such methods of gaining access to the heart, then why did he not make mention of it in his findings.

[Richard Patterson]

Providence Row Night Refuge (click)

" It provided accommodation for 300 women and children, and 50 men, as well as a convent for the Sisters of Mercy who ran the refuge."

Richard, I'm trying to picture the night refuge run by the Sisters of Mercy as a favorable place for Jack the Ripper to use as a bolt hole to sally forth into the neighborhood, commit these ghastly crimes, and return to. In the dead of the night.

And I ask myself, what's wrong with this picture? I envision the Catholic sisters as exercising tight control over the premises and the comings and goings. It being a 'night refuge" you come there to seek refuge for the night. The night comes, you're in. You're not in and out, you're in, snug as a bug in a rug.

Roy

Using Kelly as an example, Thompson leaves the refuge, sometime after midnight. He leaves Kelly's room before sunrise. Why would he have had to return directly to the refuge? The refuge may have been his alibi and explanation for why he was in Whitechapel, but I don't think he would have used it as a revolving door either.

[GUT]

The Virchow method told of removal of the heart via the pericardium. This is what Bond found in his examination of Kelly. If Bond knew of such methods of gaining access to the heart, then why did he not make mention of it in his findings.

But why would he say "It was the Virchow method" perhaps if he was talking to or writing for other doctors but a golden rule for expert witnesses is the KISS principle [Keep It Simple Stupid]

[Roy Corduroy]

Francis Thompson should be made the prime suspect for Jack the Ripper, because he was living in the building opposite the corner of the street, where Mary Kelly was killed. Whitechapel’s, Providence Row homeless shelter at, 50 Crispin Street, was where this ex-medical student and long time vagrant was residing. Here in the autumn of 1888, while carrying a razor sharp dissecting scalpel, and small parcel, he wandering the streets, late at night. He said he was seeking out a prostitute, after the last one he fought with had simply vanished. Thompson was carrying a knife, had the ability to use it and it can be shown he was motivated to kill prostitutes. Finally, he is the only credible suspect who can be placed closest to a murder site.

Hi Richard,

Since this thread began with the quote about Providene Row from John Shaw's excellent biography, I would like to pause right here and examine what you said-

He said he was seeking out a prostitute, after the last one he fought with had simply vanished. Thompson was carrying a knife, had the ability to use it and it can be shown he was motivated to kill prostitutes.

Shaw's recounting of Francis' breakup with the Chelsea prostitute who befriended him is much more realistic. During Thompson's 'rescue' by Meynell, she realized she would have no place in his future life, and parted ways with him. Nowhere does Shaw say, or even intimate that they fought. Or that he was motivated to kill. Or was seeking out a prostitute. And if he was seeking out the Chelsea prostitute, the last place he'd look would be Spitalfields.

Roy

[Richard Patterson]

But why would he say "It was the Virchow method" perhaps if he was talking to or writing for other doctors but a golden rule for expert witnesses is the KISS principle [Keep It Simple Stupid]

I agree that this may be the reason why it was not mentioned.

[Richard Patterson]

Hi Richard,

Since this thread began with the quote about Providene Row from John Shaw's excellent biography, I would like to pause right here and examine what you said-

He said he was seeking out a prostitute, after the last one he fought with had simply vanished. Thompson was carrying a knife, had the ability to use it and it can be shown he was motivated to kill prostitutes.

Shaw's recounting of Francis' breakup with the Chelsea prostitute who befriended him is much more realistic. During Thompson's 'rescue' by Meynell, she realized she would have no place in his future life, and parted ways with him. Nowhere does Shaw say, or even intimate that they fought. Or that he was motivated to kill. Or was seeking out a prostitute. And if he was seeking out the Chelsea prostitute, the last place he'd look would be Spitalfields.

Roy

Yes Walsh (I think you mean him when you say Shaw) does intimate that he was motivated to kill. In his 1987 edition to his book Walsh wrote, in its Appendix, of Thompson in 1888,

'At this time occurred the most bizarre coincidence in Thompson's life. During the very weeks he was searching for his prostitute friend, London was in an uproar over the ghastly deaths of five such women at the hands of Jack the Ripper...it is not beyond possibility that Thompson himself may have been questioned. He was, after all, a drug addict, acquainted with prostitutes, and, most alarming, a former medical student!'

Interestingly Everard Meynell, son of Thompson’s publisher, in his 1913 biography on Thompson, detailed the final conversation, between Thompson and his secret admirer, and her growing resemblance to Thompson's dead mother and dead sister.

'After his first interview with my father he had taken her his news "They will not understand our friendship." She said, and then, "I always knew you were a genius." And so she strangled the opportunity; she killed again the child, the sister; the mother had come to life within her.'
{Life of Francis Thompson 1st. edition. p83}

It’s very curious indeed that Everard would use words like strangle and kill when first speaking of Thompson’s parting with his prostitute. Particularly when the Ripper strangled and killed his victims. If Thompson had already killed his prostitute friend in a fit of rage and he choose to kill more women, why not those around Providence Row, where he slept.

[Roy Corduroy]

Yes Walsh (I think you mean him when you say Shaw)

Thanks, Richard, yes I meant to say John Walsh. I enjoyed his biography of Francis Thompson and plan to read it again.

[Richard Patterson]

Thanks, Richard, yes I meant to say John Walsh. I enjoyed his biography of Francis Thompson and plan to read it again.

Thanks for the brilliant plans of that corner of Crispin Street and Raven Row. Great photo of the building too. Thank you very much
If you don't mind I would like to put both these images on my Facebook group for my book on Thompson. The copy Walsh's book, I bought through Amazon, is the 1967 edition, which includes the Ripper reference. The first copy I read years ago was the 1987 edition. I wonder if it mentions Providence Row too. I'm curious to see if I missed it the first time. I guess back in 1997, I might not have thought it had any meaning. I knew much less about the street-scape of Whitechapel back then, having never visited yet.

[Roy Corduroy]

Yes of course, Richard, you're welcome. This link is to the plan sheet showing that neighborhood, and the proximity of the refuge to Dorset street (click)

I myself have been to Boston College to the Burns library that holds many of Thompson’s notes and letters. It was there that I attained information that he would walk nights on Mile End Road in the East End.

That's interesting. Walsh has another book, The Letters of Francis Thompson, but I haven't read it. Have you? I wonder does it contain the above reference to Mile End which you located through your research.

Anyhow I am happy to discuss Francis Thompson with you, Richard. He's one of the more interesting people in the world of letters. And it gets awfully close to a favorite subject of mine - Pugin.

Roy

[Richard Patterson]

Yes of course, Richard, you're welcome. This link is to the plan sheet showing that neighborhood, and the proximity of the refuge to Dorset street (click)



That's interesting. Walsh has another book, The Letters of Francis Thompson, but I haven't read it. Have you? I wonder does it contain the above reference to Mile End which you located through your research.

Anyhow I am happy to discuss Francis Thompson with you, Richard. He's one of the more interesting people in the world of letters. And it gets awfully close to a favorite subject of mine - Pugin.

Roy

I have Walsh's "Letters of Francis Thompson". I have read it and no it does not contain the reference to Mile End which I located through my research. I had to read the original letter kept at Burns Library in Boston College. For some reason that particular phrase was omitted from Walsh's book. I noticed that a few other, letters in his book, were also truncated. Which was unsettling. Beyond whether Thompson was or was not the Ripper, he certainly was an interesting character with a fascinating life and I think a profound poet. I'm happy to answer any questions upon him and discuss him with you as well. PS: My Facebook book group has a lot more info on Thompson.

[Scott Nelson]

Richard,

You've had correspondence with Martin Fido about Thompson, haven't you? I believe he regards him as a minor curiosity in the Ripper case, right?