Francis Thompson. The Perfect Suspect.

[Richard Patterson]

Hi,

I am not saying that Thompson was a liar. But he was a writer and poet, and it is well know that writers "borrow" things. The actual story of the prositute in De Quincys "Confessions ...." is a very haunting, lost romance, story. Just such a story that Thompson could have borrowed for himself, as a way of living it.

When someone borrows something, they plan to return it. When do you think Thompson will be returning this story and to whom? But you are not saying his liar? Are you hinting that he was a thief?

[Hatchett]

Hi,

I think we are dealing with semantics here.

Let me make it plain, I think it very unlikely that the two people had the same experiance that they spoke about.

[Ausgirl]

Poets DO "borrow" things from other writers - styles, ideas, themes, images, even sometimes phrases. This is a fact. I am a poet, friend of many poets, and I can testify to this: even those poets who occasionally take the path of eschewing the work of other poets (and do not at the same time suck, for the paucity of knowledge) will admit to being influenced by something or other. The creative mind struggles to sustain its work in a vacuum.

Just noting, poets do "borrow" (and this IS the term we use, it ought to be noted) ideas from other writers, it's almost de rigueur, and not only that, it's quite acceptable for them to do so. Sometimes quite blatantly, though there's also that invisible line one doesn't cross, into plagiarism territory. But even that is forgivable, at times, if done well enough.

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal
--T.S. Eliot

Why is it necessary, in order to promote one suspect, to tear another down? Not that I haven't done it.. but it gets a bit annoying when protracted as an argument, bickering is tiresome to wade through.

In another thread, you quoted a text which claimed Mary Kelly had an addicted poet for a friend. If Thompson, as a poet and just such an addict, can be *firmly* placed in Whitechapel, I think that's a valuable area of exploration -- even if he's not the Ripper, perhaps he figures in the life of a victim, and thus add to the general canon of knowledge. It'd be something *new* and even that is quite an achievement.

So what exactly, in point form if possible, places Thompson firmly in Whitechapel during the period of the murders?

How reliable are the sources of the information on his dressing and living habits?

If there's some concrete - really, concrete - stuff putting Thompson in Whitechapel, and evidence that his love for a lady of the night was real and not "borrowing", and so on, then he is a very good suspect.

Along with several other very good suspects.

[Hatchett]

Hi,

I think that really sums it up Ausgirl.

Best wishes.

[Richard Patterson]

Poets DO "borrow" things from other writers - styles, ideas, themes, images, even sometimes phrases. This is a fact. I am a poet, friend of many poets, and I can testify to this: even those poets who occasionally take the path of eschewing the work of other poets (and do not at the same time suck, for the paucity of knowledge) will admit to being influenced by something or other. The creative mind struggles to sustain its work in a vacuum.

Just noting, poets do "borrow" (and this IS the term we use, it ought to be noted) ideas from other writers, it's almost de rigueur, and not only that, it's quite acceptable for them to do so. Sometimes quite blatantly, though there's also that invisible line one doesn't cross, into plagiarism territory. But even that is forgivable, at times, if done well enough.

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal
--T.S. Eliot

Why is it necessary, in order to promote one suspect, to tear another down? Not that I haven't done it.. but it gets a bit annoying when protracted as an argument, bickering is tiresome to wade through.

In another thread, you quoted a text which claimed Mary Kelly had an addicted poet for a friend. If Thompson, as a poet and just such an addict, can be *firmly* placed in Whitechapel, I think that's a valuable area of exploration -- even if he's not the Ripper, perhaps he figures in the life of a victim, and thus add to the general canon of knowledge. It'd be something *new* and even that is quite an achievement.

So what exactly, in point form if possible, places Thompson firmly in Whitechapel during the period of the murders?

How reliable are the sources of the information on his dressing and living habits?

If there's some concrete - really, concrete - stuff putting Thompson in Whitechapel, and evidence that his love for a lady of the night was real and not "borrowing", and so on, then he is a very good suspect.

Along with several other very good suspects.

In my first post on this thread, I told that Thompson was the perfect suspect. This was because he fulfilled all the necessary conditions needed to for a credible suspect. These being.

1. Ability- Trained surgeon.
2. Opportunity – Was walking the streets of London at all hours of night.
3. Weapon – Had a dissecting scalpel.
4. Motive – His being spurned by a prostitute.

I merely. I asked if anyone had a suspect that could do the same with these same necessary conditions. I was in fact inviting anyone to promote their suspect against mine.
Hatchett, apparently unable or unwilling to do so, chooses to instead to write, post #10 of this thread, that it is,

‘highly likely that Thompson's story about the prostitute girl friend was "borrowed" from De Quincey.’

In essence Hatchett is saying that Thompson’s Chelsea prostitute did not exist. Making one of my four claims, on Thompson’s motive, no longer valid. Since all biographers have conceded that this prostitute was real, and so to did his associates and life-long friends. I asked Hatchett on what basis was he making his claim. I asked did he, for example; think Thompson was being dishonest in declaring his love for this prostitute and sadness and anger of losing her.

You have told me that poets often borrow. Is it still semantics to enquire what the term ‘borrow’ means here? Certainly poets ‘borrow’. Thompson himself, in a review he wrote on the writer Henley, agreed, noting,

‘Spartan law holds good in literature, where to steal is honourable, provided it be done with skill and dexterity: wherefore Mercury was the patron both of thieves and poets.;’

Poet’s are known, from time to time, pilfer and plagiarize from another poet. I noticed you quote T.S Eliot. He happened to draw upon Thompson. Eliot, whom had read Thompson while at Harvard, found Thompson’s poems to be very influential and made a footnote attributing part of his poem “The Rock”, to Thompson’s poem “The Kingdom of God”. Here are experts from both poems showing Eliot’s reliance on Thompson.

Thompson’s “Kingdom of God”,

‘O world invisible, we view thee
O world intangible, we touch thee,
O world unknowable, we know thee,
Inapprehensible, we clutch thee!’

Excerpt of Eliot’s, “The Rock”,

‘The light that slants over stagnant pools at batlight
Moon light and star light, owl and moth light,
Glow-worm glowlight on a grassblade.
O Light Invisible, we worship Thee!’

(As chance would have it, both Eliot and Thompson were 29 when they first became published poets with Eliot’s “Prufrock” and Thompson’s “Hound of Heaven” They were both 34 when their most famous poems were published with Eliot’s “The Wasteland” and Thompson’s “Sister Songs”.)

Yes poets do ‘borrow,’ but Hatchett is not just suggesting that the poet Thompson was borrowing a word, line or verse. He suggests that Thompson borrowed a person. That the very prostitute that Thompson wrote had a devastating impact on him all his life, was borrowed simply to fulfill some romantic notion. Such a suggestion seems unnecessary, and formulated simply, rather than promote another suspect, to tear mine down.

I can’t place Thompson firmly in Whitechapel. So I cannot give you anything in point form. I can say that during his vagrancy years;

• He frequented the Guildhall Library – In the East End.
• He lived in the West India Docks District -In the East End.
• He walked nights along Mile End Road –In the East End.
• He slept in homeless shelters, most likely the Salvation Army’s Limehouse shelter – In the East End.

Descriptions of Thompson, on his dressing and living habits come from Thompson’s close associates, and long time friends - people who knew him for many years.

[Hatchett]

Hi,

I am not saying that he borrowed a person. I am saying that he borrowed a scene, in fact a very poetic and moving scene that in reality belonged to De Qunicey.

To be a credible suspect there needs to be the link to Whitechapel.

Can you please detail it.

Best wishes.

[Richard Patterson]

Hi,

I am not saying that he borrowed a person. I am saying that he borrowed a scene, in fact a very poetic and moving scene that in reality belonged to De Qunicey.

To be a credible suspect there needs to be the link to Whitechapel.

Can you please detail it.

Best wishes.

Thompson claimed to have had a year long affair with this prostitute, it must be the longest borrowed scene in history. As I have said, Thompson admits to spending nights on Mile End Road. In 1888 this road ended where it met Whitechapel Road. This is about 100 meters from Bucks Row, where the body of Nichols was found. Looks like a link to me.

[Ausgirl]

I can’t place Thompson firmly in Whitechapel. So I cannot give you anything in point form. I can say that during his vagrancy years;

• He frequented the Guildhall Library – In the East End.
• He lived in the West India Docks District -In the East End.
• He walked nights along Mile End Road –In the East End.
• He slept in homeless shelters, most likely the Salvation Army’s Limehouse shelter – In the East End.

Descriptions of Thompson, on his dressing and living habits come from Thompson’s close associates, and long time friends - people who knew him for many years.

Thank you for clarifying. At least he can be proved to have been in the East End area during the relevant period, which some proposed suspects cannot be.

Playing devil's advocate a moment, and thinking on the poet's propensity to draw inspiration from pretty much anything they percieve as important to them, I have to wonder this, re the more gory of his poems:

Is it possible that he was not the Ripper himself, but merely inspired by the case? The witch babies (awesome concept... wish I'd thought of it..) is actually a thought I've had several times - was a delusional JtR looking for something, inside these women?

The poems could have been the result of a creative process sparked not just by JtR being plastered all over the papers and being talked about so much, but also by Thompson having an intimate knowledge of street life and the kind of women Jack targetted. He would have been right there in the thick of the fear, if he was on the streets in 1888..

Perhaps he simply felt an affinity with JtR, I know I have sublimated some of my own less attractive emotions that way in several of my own works, it's a fairly common thing for poets to do.

Of course, I understand that it's not just the poems that have led you to this theory.

[Richard Patterson]

Thank you for clarifying. At least he can be proved to have been in the East End area during the relevant period, which some proposed suspects cannot be.

Playing devil's advocate a moment, and thinking on the poet's propensity to draw inspiration from pretty much anything they percieve as important to them, I have to wonder this, re the more gory of his poems:

Is it possible that he was not the Ripper himself, but merely inspired by the case? The witch babies (awesome concept... wish I'd thought of it..) is actually a thought I've had several times - was a delusional JtR looking for something, inside these women?

The poems could have been the result of a creative process sparked not just by JtR being plastered all over the papers and being talked about so much, but also by Thompson having an intimate knowledge of street life and the kind of women Jack targetted. He would have been right there in the thick of the fear, if he was on the streets in 1888..

Perhaps he simply felt an affinity with JtR, I know I have sublimated some of my own less attractive emotions that way in several of my own works, it's a fairly common thing for poets to do.

Of course, I understand that it's not just the poems that have led you to this theory.

This is a very interesting and thoughtful premise and also one I have entertained on a number of occasions. There are reasons for this. For example, Everard Meynell, in his biography of Thompson, told of the poet’s association with criminals while homeless.

‘…He now began to learn something of his companions, of their slang, of their ways and means…The murderer to whom he makes several allusions, he disguises under the initials D. I…'

I have been curious who this D.I might have been and have wondered if he may have been the ripper instead of my suspect. This D.I, living on the streets, would certainly also have had the opportunity to kill these women. Unfortunately, despite its attractiveness, this other murderer, would have to have had the required weapon, skills in cutting into corpses and organ removal and a clear motive. These are traits which, hard as a l look, always have me return to Francis Thompson – The Perfect Suspect.

[Richard Patterson]

Hi,

I dont think that there is anything that connects him to Whitechapel, let alone to murder or violence of any kind.

Really, just a sad and talented soul who lost his way.

This connects him to Whitechapel. Here is a map of Whitechapel. It shows where Francis Thompson was living in 1888. It shows his location in relation to where the Ripper's victims where found. The map points to Thompson living less than 100 meters from Mary Kelly. Thompson was lodging in the Catholic refuge in Providence Row, at 50 Crispin Street. This is opposite Dorset Street.

[GUT]

This connects him to Whitechapel. Here is a map of Whitechapel. It shows where Francis Thompson was living in 1888. It shows his location in relation to where the Ripper's victims where found. The map points to Thompson living less than 100 meters from Mary Kelly. Thompson was lodging in the Catholic refuge in Providence Row, at 50 Crispin Street. This is opposite Dorset Street.

Sorry Richard you have probably posted this elsewhere but I have previously seen speculation that Thompson may have lived in Providence Row but can you point me to the PROOF that this is so, I have obviously missed that.

[Richard Patterson]

Sorry Richard you have probably posted this elsewhere but I have previously seen speculation that Thompson may have lived in Providence Row but can you point me to the PROOF that this is so, I have obviously missed that.

John Evangelist Walsh wrote in 1967 biography on Thompson, “Strange Harp, Strange Symphony the Life of Francis Thompson,” that Thompson was staying in Providence Row. Walsh is one of the foremost experts on Thompson with access to personal notes, archives, unpublished letters, and private notebooks. Walsh’s sources were copious and trusted. Most of the Preface to his book is devoted to thanking the people and organizations that gave him access to personal papers and related documents. He also interviewed people who knew Thompson. The circumstances of Thompson’s homelessness and the events surrounding it would hardly have been treated lightly. Providence Row was run expressively for Catholics with limited beds. It is more than likely that Thompson sought refuge with people of his faith. Such things as him being a newly published poet and writer in a respectable Catholic magazine, him being an ex-seminary student, and connections he had to priests in London, who were friends of the family, would have guaranteed entry to Providence Row. A place where Thompson would have felt protected. I myself have been to Boston College to the Burns library that holds many of Thompson’s notes and letters. It was there that I attained information that he would walk nights on Mile End Road in the East End. The Providence Row information from Walsh comes from Thompson’s manuscript, “Catholics in Darkest England”. This was an essay, using the Salvation Army’s shelters as an example foe why Catholics should follow suit, providing more shelters for Catholic vagrants.

[GUT]

G'day Richard

But earlier you posted

I can’t place Thompson firmly in Whitechapel. So I cannot give you anything in point form. I can say that during his vagrancy years;

He frequented the Guildhall Library – In the East End.
He lived in the West India Docks District -In the East End.
He walked nights along Mile End Road –In the East End.
He slept in homeless shelters, most likely the Salvation Army’s Limehouse shelter – In the East End.


Descriptions of Thompson, on his dressing and living habits come from Thompson’s close associates, and long time friends - people who knew him for many years.

Perhaps you can see why I am confused.

[Richard Patterson]

G'day Richard

But earlier you posted

'I can’t place Thompson firmly in Whitechapel. So I cannot give you anything in point form. I can say that during his vagrancy years;

He frequented the Guildhall Library – In the East End.
He lived in the West India Docks District -In the East End.
He walked nights along Mile End Road –In the East End.
He slept in homeless shelters, most likely the Salvation Army’s Limehouse shelter – In the East End.'

Descriptions of Thompson, on his dressing and living habits come from Thompson’s close associates, and long time friends - people who knew him for many years.'

Perhaps you can see why I am confused.

When I posted this I had not yet found my information that placed Thompson in Whitechapel. I only came across this information, a few days ago, when I was reading the 1967 edition of Walsh's biography on Thompson. To me its reasonable to think that when Thompson could not find a bed in Providence Row, he would have slept in various other localities or walked the streets.

[GUT]

Thank you for that, it must have been in one of the other Thompson threads or something and I missed it, I'm not sure why we have so many threads dealing with the same issue [and I'm not only referring to Thompson] on the day the Edwards DNA fiasco started I think that 4 threads were started on the same topic.