The Theory That Will Live On Forever

[jmenges]

If you would like to make that leap, sadly you'd probably find you'll have more people in agreement with you than continuing to push the Masonic Conspiracy theory.

JM

[London Fog]

I know it was "what's said to have been found there" but you must look at who said it and when and under what circumstances it was said in order to judge whether the information is reliable. In this case, those factors may lead you to doubt that rings were found at the feet of Annie Chapman.

JM

Maybe there were no killings at all in 1888. If you think about it, there was a lot of embellishment in order to sell newspapers. Isn't that proof that there were no killings at all? Have we all been lied to?

[London Fog]

I think that given all we know, which granted isn't a lot, we can rule out Annie Chapman having been moved. And yes the blood evidence supports that she was killed there, but it's more a practical consideration of stashing a dead woman in someone's backyard. Those unfamiliar with the area would have had no idea that backyard was even available. But even more to the point, Annie Chapman was not a small woman and she had very severe injuries. Rolling a body out of carriage is one thing, two guys pulling her out, running through a house, and stashing her in the backyard is a whole other thing. And since she bled in that backyard, she would have been bleeding as they hustled her corpse through the house, and there was no blood evidence in the hallway or at the front door.

Not that moving a body is ever a completely practical endeavor, but in the case of Annie Chapman, that choice of dumping spot would have been utterly ridiculous.

That's the first I've heard about taking her body through a house.

[jmenges]

I know it was "what's said to have been found there" but you must look at who said it and when and under what circumstances it was said in order to judge whether the information is reliable. In this case, those factors may lead you to doubt that rings were found at the feet of Annie Chapman.

JM

[Errata]

We've already talked about those things. A carriage would not have gone barreling down the streets. IF there was a carriage, it would have been used as a planned strategy, to keep from being seen on the streets, taking the time to mutilate five bodies. That brings us to your statement, "Mitre Sq was heavily patrolled." If you think about it, ALL streets were heavily patrolled, at least after the killings started. That makes it all the more unlikely that someone could have done all the rippings on the streets, out in the open.

With Marie Kelly there wouldn't have been no need for a carriage, as she was killed and mutilated in the seclusion of her room.

You use the word, "Suggest" to show what you believe, yet you ask me to show proof. Neither of us have proof, as I have said before. We all believe what we believe because it's what seems most likely to us.

I think that given all we know, which granted isn't a lot, we can rule out Annie Chapman having been moved. And yes the blood evidence supports that she was killed there, but it's more a practical consideration of stashing a dead woman in someone's backyard. Those unfamiliar with the area would have had no idea that backyard was even available. But even more to the point, Annie Chapman was not a small woman and she had very severe injuries. Rolling a body out of carriage is one thing, two guys pulling her out, running through a house, and stashing her in the backyard is a whole other thing. And since she bled in that backyard, she would have been bleeding as they hustled her corpse through the house, and there was no blood evidence in the hallway or at the front door.

Not that moving a body is ever a completely practical endeavor, but in the case of Annie Chapman, that choice of dumping spot would have been utterly ridiculous.

[London Fog]

Is that a fact?

JM

Well, I wasn't there, but that's what was said to have been found there.

[jmenges]

at feet were two farthings and two brass rings

Is that a fact?

JM

[London Fog]

Well its been a few years since I've gone over this stuff so may have to check..But off the top of my head

1 Poly Nichols. A large amount of blood had drained under the body and solidified indicating she had bleed to death at the place where she was found. A witness, Harriot Lilly heard nothing apart from a gurgling sound followed by whispering. No witnesses heard or saw a crage or Cart. There were no blood signs that she had been dragged or moved there… So Poly was killed where found.

2. Chapman. Seen talking to a man outside Hanbury street by Mrs Long shortly before being discovered. No mention of a Horse and carage, would have had to have gone down a short hall way (No signs of blood) suggesting strongly Chapman was killed where she was discovered.

3. Stride. Witness Schwartz. Saw a man stop talk to the victim and attach her at 12.45. Blackwells estimated time of Death 12.50. Schwartz doesn't mention a carage although the body was discovered by deimschutz who was driving a small horse and cart.

4. Eddows seen talking to a man appearance of a sailor short before her body was discovered. Mitre Sq was heavily patrolled and its possible PC Harvey saw a man leaving the sq… But Never mentions hearing or seeing a Carage or any other vechile. The blood splatter and wounds inflicted all suggest she was kiled where she lay.

5. Kelly. More problematic because we don't have an accurate time of death. However the post mortum indicates she put up a struggle, the killer slashing through the sheets so she was probably alive when she entered the room. Dr Bonds report indicates that she was probably mutilated where she lay. No witnesses to my knowledge mention hearing a horse and carafe or any such disturbance.

So there we have Five murders all of which suggest the killer operated by foot. Which seems the most logical deduction unless you can proved something to the contrary?

Yours Jeff

We've already talked about those things. A carriage would not have gone barreling down the streets. IF there was a carriage, it would have been used as a planned strategy, to keep from being seen on the streets, taking the time to mutilate five bodies. That brings us to your statement, "Mitre Sq was heavily patrolled." If you think about it, ALL streets were heavily patrolled, at least after the killings started. That makes it all the more unlikely that someone could have done all the rippings on the streets, out in the open.

With Marie Kelly there wouldn't have been no need for a carriage, as she was killed and mutilated in the seclusion of her room.

You use the word, "Suggest" to show what you believe, yet you ask me to show proof. Neither of us have proof, as I have said before. We all believe what we believe because it's what seems most likely to us.

[London Fog]

OK. Which of the Ripper C-5 were, in your opinion, London Fog, killed and laid out in what you would consider a Masonic way? Were Polly Nichols, or Annie Chapman, or Stride? Who?

I am far from an expert on this case, but you reject everything that doesn't tie up to a Royal Conspiracy involving Freemasonry. And yes, I do know about the rituals and the Three Ruffians. It's just that none of it links in with JTR.

Read all my posts. I don't reject anything that doesn't tie up to a Royal Conspiracy involving Freemasonry. I'm only trying to defend myself for my opinions.

1. Mary Ann Nichols - Throat cut from left to right. Bowels cut. Body mutilation.

2. Annie Chapmen - Worse bowel mutilation, cut and thrown over shoulder. Throat cut from left to right. at feet were two farthings and two brass rings.

3. Elizabeth Stride - Throat cut from left to right. No mutilation. General consensus is that killer was interrupted before he could do his work.

4. Catherine Eddowes - Worse bowel mutilation, cut and thrown over shoulder. Throat cut from left to right. Cheeks cut. Eye lids slit. Nose cut off.

5. Marie Kelley - Butchered beyond recognition. Some say her heart was taken away...not sure.

This last seems to have ended the murders of this magnitude.
There's just too much of what looks like ritual in all this, at least to me. Add the word Jewes (Juwes), found written on the wall, which were, and still is, spellings of names tied into masonic slayings, both actual and symbolic. And now consider that the Royals, as well as some of the leaders of the police, were masons.

I don't say any of this is hard proof, but it's at least enough to make you think.

[Jeff Leahy]

Not facts. Opinions.

Well its been a few years since I've gone over this stuff so may have to check..But off the top of my head

1 Poly Nichols. A large amount of blood had drained under the body and solidified indicating she had bleed to death at the place where she was found. A witness, Harriot Lilly heard nothing apart from a gurgling sound followed by whispering. No witnesses heard or saw a crage or Cart. There were no blood signs that she had been dragged or moved there… So Poly was killed where found.

2. Chapman. Seen talking to a man outside Hanbury street by Mrs Long shortly before being discovered. No mention of a Horse and carage, would have had to have gone down a short hall way (No signs of blood) suggesting strongly Chapman was killed where she was discovered.

3. Stride. Witness Schwartz. Saw a man stop talk to the victim and attach her at 12.45. Blackwells estimated time of Death 12.50. Schwartz doesn't mention a carage although the body was discovered by deimschutz who was driving a small horse and cart.

4. Eddows seen talking to a man appearance of a sailor short before her body was discovered. Mitre Sq was heavily patrolled and its possible PC Harvey saw a man leaving the sq… But Never mentions hearing or seeing a Carage or any other vechile. The blood splatter and wounds inflicted all suggest she was kiled where she lay.

5. Kelly. More problematic because we don't have an accurate time of death. However the post mortum indicates she put up a struggle, the killer slashing through the sheets so she was probably alive when she entered the room. Dr Bonds report indicates that she was probably mutilated where she lay. No witnesses to my knowledge mention hearing a horse and carafe or any such disturbance.

So there we have Five murders all of which suggest the killer operated by foot. Which seems the most logical deduction unless you can proved something to the contrary?

Yours Jeff

[Rosella]

OK. Which of the Ripper C-5 were, in your opinion, London Fog, killed and laid out in what you would consider a Masonic way? Were Polly Nichols, or Annie Chapman, or Stride? Who?

I am far from an expert on this case, but you reject everything that doesn't tie up to a Royal Conspiracy involving Freemasonry. And yes, I do know about the rituals and the Three Ruffians. It's just that none of it links in with JTR.

[London Fog]

Which victims
Who killed them
Where they were killed
Why

Again, the first question can easily be found by studying the JTR case. The other three is asking for what I believe, which can easily be found by reading my posts, which you should have done to start with.

[London Fog]

Or maybe you haven't read enough.

JM

I can't read it if it's not written.

[jmenges]

I keep hearing about this convincingly discrediting evidence against this theory, but for some strange reason I never see it. Maybe it got lost.

Or maybe you haven't read enough.

JM

[London Fog]

Gut, if you really want to talk about something sensibly, try posting some of that proof so many of you keep claiming, but never showing.