I read somewhere..

[Jason]

I read somewhere,( i am not sure whether it was on casebook), that the idea that the crimes were being perpetrated by/on behalf of a Royal family member were discussed at the time of the murders by people in Whitechapel. Does anyone have any info on this ? it would be very interesting to know if that were true, and if so to know where that particular story originated from at the time ?

[packers stem]

Hi Jason
Paul Feldman in the final chapter mentions Freda Thompson who contacted him to say that her great grandfather was a detective sergeant with the city police at the time of the murders.According to Freda he was called to Mitre Square in the early hours and in the square there were 3 toffs already there well known as belonging to the royal household.
Freda's son said he has known of the story since the fifties and both were interviewed by keith skinner.

[Bob Hinton]

Oh really...

Hi Jason
Paul Feldman in the final chapter mentions Freda Thompson who contacted him to say that her great grandfather was a detective sergeant with the city police at the time of the murders.According to Freda he was called to Mitre Square in the early hours and in the square there were 3 toffs already there well known as belonging to the royal household.
Freda's son said he has known of the story since the fifties and both were interviewed by keith skinner.

The problem with stories like that is believability. How would a lowly Detective Sergeant in the City force know who comprised the Royal Household?

I think the people he saw were probably senior police officers either from the Met or the City force.

[Jason]

The problem with stories like that is believability. How would a lowly Detective Sergeant in the City force know who comprised the Royal Household?

I think the people he saw were probably senior police officers either from the Met or the City force.

Fair comment, unless they were all wearing crowns and gowns ! i would love to know if this were true though, there is something about this theory that just gives off a smell of something and this aspect about people at the time discussing it is something which fascinates me. Interesting ......

[Jason]

Hi Jason
Paul Feldman in the final chapter mentions Freda Thompson who contacted him to say that her great grandfather was a detective sergeant with the city police at the time of the murders.According to Freda he was called to Mitre Square in the early hours and in the square there were 3 toffs already there well known as belonging to the royal household.
Freda's son said he has known of the story since the fifties and both were interviewed by keith skinner.

thanks for that PS, i will have a look for this.

[Rubyretro]

thanks for that PS, i will have a look for this.

Jason - although Bob may be right, you have have to be very careful of oral histories in families..and even in communities in general, since they are like 'chinese whispers'.

"my Dad used to joke that IF..", "my Granddad used to joke..", " my Grandad used to say that his father recounted..", "My Dad said that he was told..",
"Apparently it is said in the family that..", "It is true that my ancestor.."
Get the picture ?

So Freda might be sincere, but without checking, we don't know that her Great Grandfather went to Mitre Square that night, nor that the three men were there at all, let alone from the Royal Household.

I expect that loads of families have oral histories which link them to a famous person or event or something a bit 'glamourous'...but when they're forensically checked, the links are tenuous at best (in my experience).

[Jason]

know what you mean, my grandad said that he was on a grassy knoll in November 63 and that he saw everything !

[Rubyretro]

know what you mean, my grandad said that he was on a grassy knoll in November 63 and that he saw everything !

Yes..I was brought up on the Family History of my Mother's Father's family
being descended from Admiral Hardy and there being 'proof' for this with "everything written in a Family Bible somewhere in Wales".

Since, as a teenager, I loved the writing of Thomas Hardy (and I think that he was a branch of the Hardys -maybe even that's not true ?) -I recounted it to everyone.

Also, we have very olive skin and dark hair on my mother's side, and the Family explanation was a shipwrecked sailor from the Spanish Armada was a distant ancestor
(very popular this, with my Mother, on why she needed a second home in Spain !).

Needless to say, the whole lot turned out to be 'shite' :
My Mother's maiden name is Scadden which is unusual enough to be able to trace easily, and when family members started being interested in geneology they could trace the Family way back..since they got in touch with other branches of the Family, also doing research, who exchanged information and research -the whole thing is pretty complete: and sadly no Hardys !

The mysterious 'Bible in Wales' story was true ( I was even noted in it -although I'd never seen or heard of those people -but no Hardys).

Supported by prosaic things like blood groups and physical signs, the dark skin would appear to originate from a Lascar sailor marooned near Cardiff (the family were all Sailors).

Only minor excitement was Russell Crowe on the 'Tree'..and that as a distant branch.

The 'chinese whispers' would appear to originate with the 'sailor' connection..but that's all they were -'chinese whispers'.

This anecdote just proves that a) people will tell you things convincingly believing them to be true, and b) even long held family( or collective) traditions may be
totally false...so we have to take any people talking about JtR after the events with a pinch of salt.

[Jason]

Did i read that Russell Crowe has his family history in Wales ? I know Kylie Minogue does !! must be an antipodean thing !.....my grandfather's family were from Germany, Bavaria i believe, and i was told as a child that they came to the east end of London when they arrived in the UK. Apparently they were butchers or slaughtermen by trade and thats what they did when they came here. I was also told that one of them was interviewed regarding the Whitechapel murders due to his trade, and also that the fact he was Jewish.....possibly as a result of the Leather Apron event ??? .....but then again the actual truth may be very different as you say....

[Graham]

Unless I'm totally up the creek, I've long had the impression that all this Royal Conspiracy stuff started with Dr Thomas Stowell who claimed to have seen Sir William Gull's papers early in the 20th century. In these, according to Stowell, Gull claimed that Prince Eddy didn't die of influenza in 1892, but was carted off suffering from syphilis and ended his days shut away in a sanatorium (or a tower in Glamis Castle - who knows?) By some twisted logic Stowell reckoned that this 'proved' that Eddy was the Ripper, doing the murders with Gull in tow. I think Colin Wilson wrote something about Stowe's theory, which Frank Spiering picked up on with Prince Jack. And of course Stephen Knight got on the bandwagon too.

I would seriously doubt if any member of the Royal Family was ever consciously suggested as a Ripper Suspect at the time of the murders - but of course you never know.

Graham

[Jason]

i know what you mean Graham but i have definitely heard from somewhere that at the time it was being whispered in corners that it was something involving a royal ...if i could find where i saw it then i will definitely post such a link. I dont know if people were as obsessed with conspiracy theories as they are today but it may be the birth of CT's in 1888. The one thing i will always believe is that if there were any semblance of truth in this theory then the Royal Household would have always tried to cover it up, whether they would have gone to the extremes of having those in the knowledge killed to cover it up totally is another matter. But then again, if something is worth doing its worth doing well !!

[bolo]

Hello Jason, all,

Thomas Stowell's article in the periodical The Criminologist from 1970 most probably was the starting point of the "core mythos" of the Royal Conspiracy with Prince Albert Victor, Gull, etc., but in my opinion, there were some precursors that paved its way, namely Leonard Matters' book The Mystery of Jack the Ripper from 1929. In his book, Matters came up with a certain Dr Stanley who went on a killing spree after his son caught syphilis from one of the victims. As far as I know, Matters did not mention any involvement of the Royals in the case but as Stowell followed a similar approach (just with a different doc and a Royal patient), Matters may have inspired him to do some more research in this direction.

Regards,

Boris

[Jason]

Thanks Boris, thats more than possible to be a source.

[Graham]

Hi Jason & Boris,

1] I should think people in the LVP loved conspiracy theories as much as we do - Lincoln's Assassination attracted such theories (and still does) almost from the start. And then of course in the JtR Case there was Queen Victoria's supposedly unprecendented plea to the authorities to catch the swine, this before the Canonical 5 had all been bumped off, I believe, starting rumours there and then that she knew something about what was going on in Whitechapel....

Other Historical Happenings which had tongues wagging at the time must include:

- Death of King William Rufus
- The Princes In The Tower
- The Gunpowder Plot.

I'm a sucker for conspiracy theories, me!

2] I once read Leonard Matters' book (and wish I had copy) and found it rather a good read, even though not terribly plausible. From what I gather about Stowell he was highly suspect even as far as known historical facts were concerned.

Graham

[bolo]

Hi Graham,

1] I should think people in the LVP loved conspiracy theories as much as we do - Lincoln's Assassination attracted such theories (and still does) almost from the start. And then of course in the JtR Case there was Queen Victoria's supposedly unprecendented plea to the authorities to catch the swine, this before the Canonical 5 had all been bumped off, I believe, starting rumours there and then that she knew something about what was going on in Whitechapel....

yes, I'm also convinced that certain rumours started to spread in the LVP already, especially in light of the political climate of the time. For some of the radicals and socialists of the LVP, the murders must have come in handy as proof for the "nemesis of neglect", caused by the apparent indifference of those in power towards the living conditions of the working class and the poor. It's just a small step from blaming the state leaders and Royals for the squalid living conditions of many East Enders to actually suspecting a member or confidant of the Royal family of the murders, all the more because people already thought lowly of some members of the Royal family like Prince Albert Victor or his father.

This, coupled with the sensationalism of the yellow press (The Star, etc.), must have offered fertile ground for conspiracy theorists of all kinds and classes.

Regards,

Boris