Stephenson AS a Suspect

[Howard Brown]

Howard,

He works there now. He didn't work there in 1888. He has no idea what they did or didn't do on some random night over a century ago.

Instead of assuming he "doesn't know what they did over a century ago", contact him and present this argument to him.


Attempting to say that he has intimate knowledge of a building's daily operations over a hundred years ago based on current standards is completely disingenuous. Not to mention, he DOES work there. What's he going to say? yeah this place is a shitehole anyone can get in and out even today?

He wasn't making a salespitch about the Hospital, he was merely describing the standard operating procedures of the hospital at the time.

And as to your long suppository on his neura vs. addiction...ah I see, so now we are to presume the staff was so "sympathetic" that they, being desperate money tight boot you if you are missing are now warm-hearted generous people who are willing to cover for some random person's addiction? So supposition about the hospital staff being willign to bend the rules is okay as long as it supports your particular ideas of what was going on? Hmmmmmmmm.

As I mentioned it was merely a thought, a theory, not a fact. It doesn't matter to me in the least if Stephenson went into the hospital with a severe case of priapism or pimples...

You want to believe that everything is based on Harris creation of the "fake neurastenia" because you have a bug up your butt recently about Harris and Ivor. Fabulous for you but disingenuous.

Now you have revealed how disingenuous... and common you can be if you want to be.... My efforts to show that Stephenson was a suspect for 2 days tops isn't at all connected to anything I have "against" Mr. Harris. I've made many references to his contributions to Ripperology and admire his style. I never met,spoke, or had anything to do with the man. The faked neurasthenia concept is baseless and all this nonsense that you are tossing about does nothing to erase that fact. Mr. Harris was not the attending physician and his assessment of the physical condition of Stephenson is worthless and a hoax.

I don't want to "believe" in anything in particular, but rather provide the community with the basis for the original source and up until recently, mainstream view or article of faith that Stephenson "faked" his complaint. He didn't.

I have made gestures to Ivor to appear not only on my site, but on Rippercast to discuss the Case. FYI.



I am arguing strictly from the idea that D'onston was actually ill, and in the hospital for real reasons, and being psychologically compelled to kill managed to do it anyway if indeed he was the Ripper. If he was the Ripper, perhaps he decided to check himself in in a vain attempt to "cure" his fantasies. See what unbridled and idiotic what ifs get you? Nowhere. But my sole argument is this: if Donston wanted to get out of the London Hospital, for whatever reason, be it booze, drugs or murder, I sincerely doubt that the hospital security and staff was sufficient on a daily basis to prevent it, and there is nothing a hundred years after the fact that's going to prove that it was. Precedent and logic indicate that lapses in security are frequent, often and pervasive in places that require far greater security than a ward in a hospital.

Now who's not speaking English? Donston is compelled to kill...seeks treatment in a hospital for his fantasies...and yet goes out on 4 nights anyway and kills?? This is even more convoluted than the "Barnett kills 4 strange women to discourage his girlfriend from going out at night to sell herself" argument.

[Ally]

The faked neurasthenia concept is baseless and all this nonsense that you are tossing about does nothing to erase that fact.

Except that this sentence right here shows that you are so jonesed on your particular point of view and argument that you don't even bother to read what other people wrote because I have said at least half a dozen times now that I am not arguing the claims about faked neurasthenia. I AM NOT ARGUING HARRIS' POINT OF VIEW. I have said it over and over and over and over and you keep coming back to faked neurasthenia when it has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything I have ever said on this thread. The faked neurathenia is IRRELEVANT to my argument so my argument would NOT be TRYING to "erase the fact" because once again: my. argument. is. not. related. to. in. any. way. shape. or. form. any. thing. to. do. with. faked. neurasthenia. NOTHING to do with faked neurasthenia.

My argument has always and still is this simple statement AND ONLY THIS SIMPLE STATEMENT: NO one currently living on this planet has sufficient in-depth information about what occurred on a nightly basis at the London Hosptial to say, with ANY degree of certainty, whether or not it was possible for D'onston to slip out unnoticed. PERIOD.

Do you see the words "neurasthenia" ANYWHERE in the above sentence? No.

Now who's not speaking English? Donston is compelled to kill...seeks treatment in a hospital for his fantasies...and yet goes out on 4 nights anyway and kills?? This is even more convoluted than the "Barnett kills 4 strange women to discourage his girlfriend from going out at night to sell herself" argument.

I am assuming that once again, in your haste to argue the argument you think the person is making rather than the one they actually are, you completely skipped over my statement regarding that supposition- " See what unbridled and idiotic what ifs get you?" Go back and read what I actually said again and absorb it, then respond. It's more helpful that way.

[Howard Brown]

Ally:

I know perfectly well that you aren't arguing the point of neurasthenia being faked....but it is this very concept that will segue into the other area which you are supporting or discussing, that being of the security of the Currie Ward. Sine qua non........no faked neurasthenia concept, then no subsequent circular argument between us over the security on the Currie Ward.

Without "Harris's point of view" which you aren't arguing, then the question is raised why you would argue the point of hospital security in the first place if this damned faked neurasthenia concept did not exist. No Harris,No Ally contra Howie.

Why would the security on the Currie Ward even be an issue if there was never the mention of faked neurasthenia, the "solution" to Harris's gaffe on why RDS entered the LH in his book, The Ripper File, 5 years prior to his second conclusion as to why RDS entered the LH.

Even in the Ripper File, Mr. Harris, again merely theorizing which was his right of course, speculated that RDS was "too ill" after the Kelly murder and as a result of what "illness" RDS had subsequent to the Kelly murder, that this is what put him in the LH. There is nothing "wrong" with speculating this because Mr. Harris found out that RDS DID go to the LH from the Cremers Memoirs.

The difference between the faked neurasthenia claim and the original "too ill" claim is simply that in the latter case, Mr.Harris did not know why he was in the LH at the time of the publication of the Ripper File...and when he did find out, he opted to concieve the baseless notion that he faked his complaint in his third book. Thats all. He had the dates wrong and I believe that he did the wrong thing or lets just say, he pulled a little ledgerdemain and foists this theory onto the community. I sure fell for it back in the day.

Removing this argument, or concept that he "faked" anything is what has caused us here and elsewhere to bicker over the byproduct of the bogus and baseless claim, that being the security of the LH's Currie Ward.

I hope that this is clear now. I am just as convinced that he did not attempt to sneak out of the Currie Ward as you are of the possibility that he could have,Ally. And without the seminal argument of a bogus complaint, we would have never approached this subject.

P.S. And you know D'onston is toast like I do.

[spryder]

From Ivor Edwards:

Howard Brown posted the following words on the STEPHENSON AS A SUSPECT thread on 02-29-2008.
“Besides…he. he.. Mike Covell did a “ professional investigation ” himself and found out that the Curry ward where RDS was…was locked down at night”.

Firstly, RDS was not in Currie ward at the time of his stay during the murders he was in DAVIS ward ( he…he ). Furthermore the wards were not locked only the main exterior doors were. It was a general hospital not a prison!!! Mr Evans of the London hospital has given three previous researches false information myself included and I have a letter from him in which he personally apologises to me for doing so. Mr Evans has a reputation for making mistakes. The wards were NOT locked at night. Besides which the place had dozens of windows and some French doors on the lower levels any one of which a person could gain entry through. The railings of the hospital were far lower than the height of the gate and if I wanted to come and go at night from the hospital the main gate would be the last place I would choose.
If Mike Covell had indeed done a “professional investigation” he would have learnt that the hospital authorities could not stop people getting into the hospital grounds at night to see Merrick. Eventually bars had to be placed on the windows to his rooms simply to stop people from gaining entry. If they couldn’t stop people getting in then it stands to reason they couldn’t stop them from getting out.

I intend to comment further on Mike Covell’s faulty research and opinions in Ripperologist.

On one last note Howard Brown made the following statement yesterday on Casebook to Ally regarding RDS .
“ I have made gestures to Ivor to appear not only on my site, but on Rippercaste to discuss the case.” This is not strictly true…I was asked by Howard to comment on my Tumblety article which appeared in this months Ripperologist. D’Onston or the London hospital was never brought up and no one has asked me to comment on the latter.

[Mike Covell]

First and foremost Mr Edwards was invited throughout the Ripper Podcast to come and discuss RDS with us, the invite to discuss his research into Tumblety came later.

Secondly, how can a man whose work into Robert D'Onston Stephenson's life call my work "Faulty" I take it you have looked at the chronology on the Stephenson family thread?

If my research is "Faulty" what is the work in MR Edwards Chronology in his book "Jack the Rippers Black Magic Rituals"
1841 Lives at Willows House.....Wrong
1841 Parents wealthy mill owners...Father is, it takes two to make a baby!
1859 Visits Paris.....................Evidence?
1860 Lodge of Alexandria.........Evidence?
1860 Fights in Italy.................Evidence?
1863 Visits West Coast of Africa..Evidence?
1868 Sacked for liasing with prostitutes...Evidence?
1868 Contracts VD...................Evidence?
1878 Visits India......................Evidence?
1887 Anne Deary in regents canal....Evidence?
1888 Kills Gurney..........................Evidence?
1893 Woodhull=prostitute............Evidence?
1904 RDS dissapears..................No he doesn't

Futhermore,

Chapter 11

He only resided at Willows House for a short period of time and lived at other addresses whilst in Hull, and many more throughout the UK!

Army Surgeon......Evidence?
Occultist.............Evidence?
Magician.............Evidence?
Doctor................Evidence?
Solidier...............Evidence?
Prospector..........Evidence?
Murderer............Evidence?
Bolthole.............Evidence?

I hope in this article in Ripperologist you will name your sources Mr Edwards.

[jmenges]

It is true that, when Mr. Edwards' work was mentioned on the RDS podcast, I said that he, being alive and well (unlike Mr. Harris) was welcome at any time to come on the show and debate these issues. No invitation was made to Mr. Edwards to appear on the RDS show prior to it's recording, and he may not have even listened to the podcast in question and so was unaware of the invitation to appear on a future RDS podcast.

JM

[Howard Brown]

Good to see you Ivor.

Just to clarify: I made my offer to give you full access in order to discuss your article on Tumbelty and I now make the same offer to discuss D'onston either here or on the Forums or on your site . Just give me a return email and I will glad to oblige you. No fighting, no tricks, and no quarter.

We can discuss the fact that virtually none of the claims Donston made that Mr. Harris promoted were true and you likewise support as being true...

....or we can cut to the Cremers Memoirs, which in all likelihood were not even written by Vittoria Cremers....

...or we can skip to the list Mike Covell has provided....

...or you can explain the two different theories, the first expressed in the Ripper File and how they were revised in the True Face to bring up the totally baseless claim that RDS faked neurasthenia.

Its your call,Ivor.

How

[Howard Brown]

For Ivor:

Ives...just in case we needed a starting point, lets use this one:

On pages 169-170 of your book, JTR Black Magic Rituals, you stated the following:

" I went to London Hospital and viewed the patients register and D'onston was admitted with neurosthenia..."

Now...in the post you asked Stephen to submit for you, you mentioned the following:


Mr Evans of the London Hospital has given three previous researchers false information myself included and I have a letter from him in which he personally apologises to me for doing so. Mr Evans has a reputation for making mistakes.

My question is this: Why would you have recieved a apologia from Mr. Evans if you stated clearly in JTRBMR that you went to the London Hospital and viewed the patients register for yourself?

[Howard Brown]

Just as I suspected and expected...no reply to the simple question.

For those unaware of the issue of which ward ( Currie or Davies ) that is being mentioned here... & as we can see, Mr. Edwards is stubbornly clinging to the Davies Ward....lets check out these facts,shall we ?

In the book by Evans and Skinner, Letters From Hell, on page 205, we are provided with the complete October 16th letter written by Stephenson to the City of London police which gives his location within the London Hospital as...drumroll....the Currie Ward.

Now, if Mr. Edwards had actually gone to the London Hospital and perused the registry for Stephenson, he like his predecessor, Melvin Harris, would have seen how the Currie Ward has been struck out in red ink and the Davies written in as well.

This "as well" is important in that we do not know, nor did Mr. Harris or does Mr. Edwards, why this marking-out of the Currie Ward appears for certain. In essence, despite both wards appearing on the registration, no evidence as Mr. Edwards strongly protests does exist, really exists as to whether or not Stephenson ever stepped foot in the Davies Ward, other than this addition to the original "strike out" in red. Stephenson wrote his letter from the Ward which was originally on the registry. Could Stephenson have been moved to the Davies Ward after October 16th ? If so, the fact remains that Stephenson was in the Currie Ward...a fact not lost on Mr. Edwards, but circumlocuted by insults to Mike Covell's work and the definite link of RDS to that very ward via the letter that Mr. Edwards mentions in his book on page 247 , but for some reason does not include the content and address from whence the letter emanated in his work. Pity,ain't it?

Mike Covell, in his investigation of the Hospital registry with Mr. Jonathan Evans, discovered that this practice of some registrations being touched up, corrected, altered, give it a name, by red-ink was not uncommon. Several other pages Mike perused also had this "striking out" characteristic.

By the way, Mr. Edwards repeats his claim that he has "seen the registry at London Hospital" on page 188. I was so excited to see Ivor appear here that I forgot to mention this 4 days ago. Its funny that Mr. Edwards at no time mentions the strike-out in red as Mr. Covell did and as Spiro Dimolianis pointed out 18 months ago right here on this site and on JTRForums.com

Still waiting, Ives....

[caz]

Yes but your super secret evidence would be the dynamite needed to stop further slander such as the sort that is occurring on the Powell thread and stop further people from making money off of new frauds they are dreaming up. So you are hardly off the hook, and in fact, even more so on the hook as there are CURRENT frauds and lies in progress that could be arrested in their tracks with the revelation of this new information.

So ....you are in the unique position of stopping a fraud and a scam BEFORE it occurs. Do it.

Hi Ally,

Just got back to this thread after a loooong absence. I am soooo sorry. (Well, okay, a little bit sorry then. )

If only I could oblige, my dear, and obey your command. But alas, my hands are tied by others who got in first with their own commands.

Not my super secret evidence, d'you see? I am not at liberty to let the cat any further out of the bag than it already is. I'm merely at liberty to remind anyone who takes the liberty of engaging in speculation, lies or fraud that the cat exists and it has claws.

And others are at liberty not to believe me. Can't do much about it.

But then again, we are all responsible for our own behaviour, as I thought you would be the first to agree. So while I am wholly responsible for not obeying your command while committing myself to another, anyone who chooses to lie or commit fraud while the cat's away is wholly responsible for doing so.

In any case, the sort of people who dream up frauds and scams at every opportunity will always find two new avenues to go down for every one cut off. And frankly, life's too short to set myself up as an unpaid roadblock for every ne'er-do-well out there.

I can only assume that anyone who claimed to have the roadblock that would have cut off the diary's supplies of filthy lucre once and for all also found life too short to use it against the diary hoaxer(s). And yet they are the ones who have traditionally done all the huffing and puffing and moaning about the supplies continuing to get through. Whenever that's pointed out, it's suddenly not their responsibility either. So fine - they can huff and puff and moan while still failing to blow the house down for all I'm supposed to care.

Love,

Caz
X

[Ally]

Hi caz,

I think the point is still very simple. You are now doing exactly what you excoriated Melvin Harris for doing years ago. Claiming you can't come out with the super secret evidence at your disposal because it isn't yours to share. And that's fine, and that's your right. Just like I defended Melvin Harris as it being his right when you and Omlor were tearing the skin off of him. But it doesn't change the fact that you are doing exactly what you said was so wrong for others to do.

[Tom_Wescott]

This might be a bit off-topic, so please excuse the intrusion, but I've been under the impression that the Ripper podcast is a jtrforums thing. That being the case, why have both Ivor Edwards and myself been approached to speak on it, since we're not even allowed on the jtrforums site? This isn't a bitch or an attempt to sh*t stir, but an honest question. Is the podcast not a Howard/Covell/Menges operation?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Stephen Thomas]

I've been under the impression that the Ripper podcast is a jtrforums thing....................... Is the podcast not a Howard/Covell/Menges operation?

Hi Tom

I thought that the podcast was its own thing (and in itself can make a Heaven of Hell or a Hell of Heaven, to misquote Milton). The three you mention are all Casebook members are they not.

[Mike Covell]

The podcast is there for the community at large and goes way beyond myself, Jonathon and Howard, not to mention RJM who is busy arranging guests!

The show has been created as a show for students of the case, and is open to anyone that wishes to come on the show, and has been promoted on both jtrforums and casebook in equal measure.

Tom, if you have a chosen topic for discussion, all you have to do is say and we will arrange a place for you, although there is a queue at the moment.

And of course we made it clear in episode 1 that Mr. Ivor Edwards is more than welcome to come on the show, and if he wan't to discuss something other than RDS, fine.

This Sunday will feature Stephen P Ryder and should be a great show!

[RJM]

Tom,

You really should listen to the show before hinting at some sort of cabal. I think you will find that the discussions on the podcast are far more civil than any of the Ripper message boards.

As Mike said, you are more than welcome to add your name to the list of future guests. Those who have been on the show and those who will be on upcoming episodes are there for the same reason the four panel members are: to discuss the Whitechapel murders and associated topics. The main difference with other media is that we're using 21st technology to deliver the information.

Sorry to interrupt the thread. Please carry on with the RDS discussion.

Cheers,

Robert