Stephenson AS a Suspect

[Ally]

Oh but Mr. Poster is a fool. And an idiot if he can't understand the distinction I made between a hospital and asylum. <-- That sentence was rather redundant wasn't it?

[Mr Poster]

hi ho Gideon

Ya reckon I am being disingenuos? The longer you spend round here the more you will come to realise that such generalisations slip into the perceived wisdom and befoe you know it the majority of serial killers are turning up at the cop shop and bolsters are arses and no killer has ever changed his MO and so on.

Now i can perfectly well see that the inference should have been that the average Victorian hospital may not have been more secure than a jail.

Which makes me wonder what sort of cretin then produces this:

A hospital has NEVER had better security than a jail.

Perhaps you missed that we now talk about ANY hospital, not just Victorian, NEVER have being more secure than a jail, ever, anywhere, at any time.

The point would have been carried without such a daft assertion.

And given all that, even if the qualifications missing had been made.....the line would have been still invalid given that we 1) know nothing of the hospital where our man was admitted, 2) no nothing about what sort of ward/room he was in and 3) if he was admitted for a slight case of lunacy the security level the place had or had not is fundamentally irrelevant as if disturbed he was probably sedated/stuck in a jacket/whacked with a roll of farthings.

So....discussion of the security of the place is pointless, comparison of its security to that of a jail even more ridiculous to try establish its porosity to patients and the daft sweeping generalisation as to all hhospitals through eternity.....melodramatic and indicative of the empty skull that is usually found round here spouting nonsense.
p

[Pilgrim]

The Criminally Vivid Imagination.

Dear Pilgrim:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
Anyone wishing to pose Stephenson as a bona fide contemporary ( 1888 ) and/or modern ( Post-Aleister Crowley to present ) suspect, please use this thread.

From what little I've read about Stephenson there would seem to be sufficient reason to suspect him of having had a criminally vivid imagination. So, I guess, in that respect, he would be guilty of at least one crime. Which perhaps makes it understandable that some people would come to suspect him of these murders.

There is also the fact of course, that Stephenson is supposed to have been suffering from an 'illness' known to have been of a rather vague character, sometimes including (what might be interpreted as) psychosomatic symptoms. And of course, Stephenson "injected" himself into the investigation, with his claims about the "writing on the wall" in Goulston Street. Most propbably in order to divert the investigation all the way over to France. A criminally vivid imagination, no doubt. And his "diversive injection", when did it happen ? Hadn't he already been fingered as a possible suspect ?

Personally, I have found it most safe to file Stephenson's statements under "Contemporary Witnesses, too imaginative and/or perceptive for their own good." But of course, that decision may have been caused by a certain prejudice in his favor.

His imagination also was his meal ticket.... in particular, the plagiarized episode in Borderland, which is virtually verbatim from an 1836 novel by his "hero" Lord Lytton, entitled, the Coming of the Great Race*....the part about the witch in the Italian hills... and the Haggard-inspired stories in early 1889, from whence his "relationship" with Mabel Collins began. I'm not so sure its a "criminally vivid imagination", no offense...but rather he fancied himself a "adventure story" writer.

Some folks have theorized that he displayed signs of OCD...unprovable,for sure...but yes, it has been suggested.

RDS was "fingered" as a suspect for the first time by Marsh, as you know. Its through the O'Donnell Manuscript and Aleister Crowley where we hear of him next. All I can suggest,Pilgrim, is to read the O.D. and see for yourself what I/we mean about how absurd it is. Maybe you could set up a thread here on Casebook for O.D. discussion like we have on the Forums.

That RDS profitted from the murders outside the LH walls...while he was confined there is without doubt. His earnings from the Stead piece and perhaps...perhaps...the advance he recieved for stories for his 1889 contributions,inspired by his first article in early December of 1888 were part of the reason he seems to be out of control during December.

He went in the LH, most likely, an alcoholic...or at least a regular drinker. He came out sober. His behavior is rather manic ( fitting up Davies...his barroom scene with Marsh....and the content of his letters ) and might indicate that his being too perceptive for his own good was a reaction he had to and of this new salubrious lifestyle....which didn't last too long,as you know, since he's right back in the LH in May of 1889 for 70 more days as a chloral hydrate abuser.

* This was revealed by Canadian Ripperologist Mark Franzoi back in 2006.

Hi Howard,

Criminally vivid imagination... that was perhaps not all too literally meant. Or perhaps it was. Either way, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with it. Earlier today I read, once more, this article in the Guardian about former Assistant Deputy Commissioner John Grieve, of the Scotland Yard. He started out as a philosophy and psychology graduate (I did not specifically notice that the first time I read it.) and was described in that article as being innovative, unconventional and controversial, and possibly the best detective the Scotland Yard ever had. I would think he may have shown what some conventional police officers might, at times, have found to have been a "criminally vivid imagination". (That is also one reason why I do put some belief in Cornwell's claim that it was John Grieve that suggested Sickert as a possible suspect, by saying that he "always had been wondering about him".) Stephenson was however not a detective, much less an Assistant Deputy Commissioner at the Scotland Yard, so I guess it's understandable that what may have been a truly "criminally vivid imagination" on Stephenson's part could lead some people to see him as "suspect" rather than simply a slightly unconventional but well-meaning citizen.

John Grieve - Art of the (im)possible

And I have already started reading the O'Donnell manuscript.

My Regards.

[Howard Brown]

Dear Pilgrim:

Please make a note of the following in the Cremers Memoirs section:

1. She lends money to the man she by this time believes is Jack The Ripper.
2. In lending money to "Jack The Ripper", she gives him her address so he can come to her house to collect the "loan". Imagine: "I.O.U. 2 quid....signed, Jack The Ripper."
3. She pulls a "b&e" on him ( breaking and entering ) by looking through his locked trunk and deed box.
4. She wanders off into another neighborhood to find a key which would open his deed box ( without taking the box itself ! ).
5. She purloins the letters which Collins was "desparate" over. Collins feared RDS would use them against her...despite the fact RDS took Collins to court over these letters. Imagine: A blackmailer who takes his intended or potential victim to court in order to take back letters he intends to use against said victim.
6. She accepts the "word" of the man she, by this time, felt might be Jack The Ripper that no further murders would occur. That must have been comforting.
7. She spends the next 40 years under the impression that he is the Ripper, content in the "karmic dispensing of justice in the next life", which is why she never rolled over on him. Comforting to know that the Theosophist Community was so concerned with their fellow man's wellbeing.

There's more Pilgrim as you go along....note that at no time does RDS practice black magic in front of Cremers and Collins comment that he was a "great magician" is simply a statement, not a recollection of any specific incident RDS performed in front of Collins.

Enjoy !
**************************

Lars & Ally and all...

We might want to remember once more that it wasn't simply a matter of RDS being in a hospital like little Joe Bloggs with a case of the mumps with Mommy and Daddy coming to visit via a reception desk and all that.

He was in a locked-down section of the LH. A locked down at night section.

Although the comparision between hospitals and jails is rather weak ( People are somewhat expected to try a jail break...but not a hospital-break ),if we were to make a comparision, I'd think a comparision between a maximum security prison would be apropos, rather than a regular prison.

[Ally]

I am going to end this argument with these words, from a very wise man:

Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard

Post Number: 268
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 8:01 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn

Its not as hard as people think to enter hospitals or leave them for that matter,once they have been recognized or are "familiar" to staff.

and of course

We don't know if RDS was able to leave on his own volition from the hospital. This "confinement" to hospital may very well not have been the actual situation at all. As a man with a possibly bogus "ailment",we don't know if he bullshitted his way with the nurses or doctors... he could have been allowed to leave the grounds. No one is certain one way or the other,not the naysayers,neither the proponents of RDS as the Ripper.

Your attempting now to claim the London Hospital was the equivalent of a maximum security hosptial is bogus. There was one gate. With one guard. Patients weren't locked into their rooms. Patients weren't chained to their beds. There is nothing to say as you have already said, that he couldn't have been allowed to leave the grounds, or "bullshitted the nurses".

Thanks for making my argument for me.

Ta.

[Howard Brown]

That ain't no wise man, that was me,Ally.

Those two pearls of wisdom were written well before we found out that Donston was in a ward that was locked down at night. I don't know why you are intentionally overlooking this fact which I have repeated several times already on this thread. We being all those who were unable to go to the LH and ask them about procedures from 120 years ago....which is exactly what Mike Covell did.

Come to think of it...keep defending the fairy tale that he waltzed around at night. This is fun and gettin' funner....

You mentioned him slipping a couple of bucks to a night watchman so he could go out and hit a couple of tappys ( the only place he could or would go to get a belt of booze ).

Nope. Wrong. The bars were closed or closing by that time. You knew that.

You mentioned the night watchman turning a blind eye to RDS or anyone else who might have enough dosh.

Right. Some guy is gonna jeopardize his "career" or job by letting some putz out at 2 A.M. or 3 A.M. with a bribe of a few pence so this stranger can go look for poontang or walk around the neighborhood for fresh air at that time?...Gimme a frigging break,Ally.

All the support I gave towards Donston back in the Paleozoic Age was based on him being in a ward where he was NOT locked in at night. You knew that too. You should be ashamed of yourself and give yourself one mean wedgie for this dredging up of antiquated posts.

If not a bridge, how about a national landmark, like Ally Forge ?

By the way...as with all other things...it ain't over until I say its over.

[Ally]

Howard.

You keep saying that the WARD was locked down at night. Not so. The hospital gate was closed. A vastly different thing than you are attempting to make it seem.

[Howard Brown]

Ally:

You keep saying that the WARD was locked down at night. Not so.

According to the information that was given to Mike Covell, it was.

[Mike Covell]

The word I recieved from Jonathon Evans was thus,

The wards were locked either internally or externally at the buildings entry and exit points.

This was done to stop,
Prostitutes entering with clients,
The Homeless entering to sleep,
Thieves from entering to steal,
and Fenian terrorist attacks.

On top of that, the main gate was locked and a gate keeper stayed in the adjoining lodge, allowing only staff in and out and of course emergancies.
Again for the reasons I have stated above.

Both Currie and Davis wards had upto 20 beds, they recieved a weekly visit by the specialist, but there was a nurses station in either the wards or on the main corridors.

Surely someone would have seen a man entering the hospital covered in blood!!

And if, as you suggest the gatekeeper was accepting bribes, why not accept them from thieves. We know there were no thefts from the London Hospital as all the business was recorded in both Yearbooks, and Minutes of Hospital Meetings.

If Stephenson was going to carry out such a daring escape and re-entry into the hospital, why bother staying there in the first place? After all there was plenty of other places to stay in the area.

Whatever next, Stephenson riding out of the hospital on the shoulders of Joseph Carey Merrick!!

[Howard Brown]

Whatever next, Stephenson riding out of the hospital on the shoulders of Joseph Carey Merrick!!

Mike...don't give anyone any ideas,pardner !!!

Thanks for the info from Mr. Evans. We should have had that for Ally before...

...or does this even matter and shall she continue her valiant effort to get D'onston outta the Hospital?

Stay Tuned.

Now we turn to our sponsors....The Pompadour Cosmetique Company and Vittorias' Secret for these words....

[Ally]

Really? They were locked either internally or externally? If they actually were locked, and that was an assurety, wouldn't they know HOW they were locked. That's a guess. Saying they were locked either internally OR externally means --they don't know! It's a pure guess. Now I am presuming that the Currie ward was it's own building within a compound that had only one door to the building which was locked by an armed guard and had no windows on the bottom floor and was sealed by barbwire fence within the compound of the whole london hospital which was also patrolled by guards and guard dogs and etc.

And to paraphrase Howard yet again "'no one is saying he strolled through the hospital all bloody and saying hey look at me". Why would Donston stay there? If indeed he were the Ripper, I dunno, free lodging, free food and all the drugs you can eat? I'd ask why'd he bother going to the hospital in London in the first place...why even make the journey to specifically go to the London Hospital unless he had a reason for being there at that time.

See ...what ifs are stupid. The security of the Hospital, no matter what you want to claim is up for debate. You cannot claim with any actual certainty that the wards were locked or the gates were locked. 100 years after the fact, people can claim whatever they want, but reality often proves a totally different story....like the recent fabulous story of the guards falling asleep on duty CONSTANTLY and NIGHTLY at the Nuclear Power plants in our country. but I guarantee you, ask anyone and they'd say the nuclear power plants are run ship tight.

So here's the question of the day. If those 7 foot tall main gates at the hospital with only one access point and only opened for emergencies were so gosh darn fail safe, why would they have to lock the wards at night to keep prostitutes and beggars out?

[Mike Covell]

Jonathon Evans knew the doors were locked period.

Stating internally or externally is not a guess i am simply stating that the doors were locked, he just wasn't sure which ones were locked internally or externally!

I have left him a message to clarify it and hopefully get me something in print to back up his claims.

Currie and Davis were both on the third floor, and the only maps that the archives have show the ground floor with a location key to the wards above.

The exit/entry doors were situated thus
Three at the front of the building,
One at either side,
and the map doesn't cover the rear.

As for the reason for being there
He was ill!
He had tried a spell in Brighton (or are we suggesting that he went there to plan it and top Edmund too!)

returned to London where his brother Richard was living, and booked himself into the hospital because he was ill.

Why not just stay at his brothers place?

[Ally]

Mike,

Do make sure to ask him why, if there was only access to London Hospital granted through one 7 foot tall gate with a caretaker/guard only opening it for emergencies and the like, why would htey have had to lock the individual wards to keep out the prostitutes and the thieves?

And P.S no offense to Mr. Evans at all, but 100+ years down the line he doesn't know what ACTUALLY went on on a nightly basis, he only knows what was supposed to have gone on a fact even he would admit to if you asked him, I imagine.

[Howard Brown]

Really? They were locked either internally or externally? If they actually were locked, and that was an assurety, wouldn't they know HOW they were locked. That's a guess. Saying they were locked either internally OR externally means --they don't know! It's a pure guess. Now I am presuming that the Currie ward was it's own building within a compound that had only one door to the building which was locked by an armed guard and had no windows on the bottom floor and was sealed by barbwire fence within the compound of the whole london hospital which was also patrolled by guards and guard dogs and etc.


Ja,dollink ! It vas just like Stalag 17 mit der nice Dobermans und der big light on der tower mit der nice man mit der machine gun.

Mr. Evans specified that the ward was locked down at night and that should suffice. He works there.



And to paraphrase Howard yet again "'no one is saying he strolled through the hospital all bloody and saying hey look at me". Why would Donston stay there? If indeed he were the Ripper, I dunno, free lodging, free food and all the drugs you can eat? I'd ask why'd he bother going to the hospital in London in the first place...why even make the journey to specifically go to the London Hospital unless he had a reason for being there at that time.

He did have a reason for going there,Ally...and maybe two reasons at that. Check this out and tell me what you think...

The first was that he might have used the Hospital in the capacity of a "dry out tank". He didn't have to confess to the LH that he was using chloral ( for his leg injury,perhaps ) and had been drinking for umpteen years. He may very well have been just trying to get his act together. I think its very likely that the hospital figured out that he was an alcoholic, but in a sympathetic gesture, classified him as a "Neurasthenic". The second time he goes, however, we see no such pussyfooting. He is designated as and determined to be a chloral hydrate abuser. Then again, the original diagnosis of him being a "neurasthenic" is the most likely. You must remember, that like Mr. Harris, I ain't no doctor.

The other reason for going was that in conjunction with his substance problems, he had no place to go. I think it likely that he contacted his brother in Islington prior to his stay in the LH and it was determined that he would get better treatment in the LH.



See ...what ifs are stupid. The security of the Hospital, no matter what you want to claim is up for debate. You cannot claim with any actual certainty that the wards were locked or the gates were locked. 100 years after the fact, people can claim whatever they want, but reality often proves a totally different story....like the recent fabulous story of the guards falling asleep on duty CONSTANTLY and NIGHTLY at the Nuclear Power plants in our country. but I guarantee you, ask anyone and they'd say the nuclear power plants are run ship tight


Although everyone understands that not everything is as it appears ( regarding security in this instance ), there is no "what if" in regard to the security of the LH. They had it. To what degree,no one can be sure of to maximum certainty.

You are assuming that on the nights in question, August 31,Sept.8,Sept 29 and Nov.8-9, that there was a chance that the security of the Currie Ward was less than sufficient to maintain the old bugger.

By that rationale, I hereby will add every other man in that ward to the suspect list here on Casebook, since they could have also gone out on those nights . Maybe even together with Stephenson in some big breakout with camouflage on and bungee cords.

I might also add every other male patient in the 5 mile radius of London, since their security was probably deficient as well. I would add Yorkshire, but everyone knows they're really sick up there.

All of this emanates from the baseless assertion that Stephenson was faking his illness during the first stay in the LH.

Mr.Harris had no problem believing that Stephenson was really ill when he wrote the Ripper File. None at all,Ally. In fact, in his haste to put the Ripper File together and promote the Crowley inspired nonsense, he didn't check the dates of entry and had no idea of what he was in the LH for !!!!

Think about it,Ally. Harris denounced ( and rightfully so ) Crowley's declarations of his intimacy with Jack The Ripper...and yet actually drags out the premise of the ties via the O'Donnell Manuscript into his writings as some sort of evidence against RDS. There IS no evidence against RDS except his big mouth in December of 1888, which was quickly shut on December 26th.

Needless to say...back to you.

[Ally]

Howard,

He works there now. He didn't work there in 1888. He has no idea what they did or didn't do on some random night over a century ago.

Attempting to say that he has intimate knowledge of a building's daily operations over a hundred years ago based on current standards is completely disingenuous. Not to mention, he DOES work there. What's he going to say? yeah this place is a shitehole anyone can get in and out even today?

And as to your long suppository on his neura vs. addiction...ah I see, so now we are to presume the staff was so "sympathetic" that they, being desperate money tight boot you if you are missing are now warm-hearted generous people who are willing to cover for some random person's addiction? So supposition about the hospital staff being willign to bend the rules is okay as long as it supports your particular ideas of what was going on? Hmmmmmmmm.

You want to believe that everything is based on Harris creation of the "fake neurastenia" because you have a bug up your butt recently about Harris and Ivor. Fabulous for you but disingenuous. I am arguing strictly from the idea that D'onston was actually ill, and in the hospital for real reasons, and being psychologically compelled to kill managed to do it anyway if indeed he was the Ripper. If he was the Ripper, perhaps he decided to check himself in in a vain attempt to "cure" his fantasies. See what unbridled and idiotic what ifs get you? Nowhere. But my sole argument is this: if Donston wanted to get out of the London Hospital, for whatever reason, be it booze, drugs or murder, I sincerely doubt that the hospital security and staff was sufficient on a daily basis to prevent it, and there is nothing a hundred years after the fact that's going to prove that it was. Precedent and logic indicate that lapses in security are frequent, often and pervasive in places that require far greater security than a ward in a hospital.