Patricia Cornwell

[Jeff Leahy]

Good point you include in your post Pirate Jack.
Particia Cornwell is not stupid.
EXACTLY.
A woman fully in control of mind and words.
By the way......
Wasn't it fraudulent when she put the words "case closed" into print, clearly stating them on her book,then failed to deliver the ultimate outcome within it's pages?

Yes anna that is largely what this discussion is about..since making this claim Patricia has stated that she has no intension of putting case closed on her next book....an olive branch perhaps?

The piont stands that the discovery made by Peter bower asks the question did sickert involve himself in teh case IE Hoax Letters?

[Stewart P Evans]

Gurney Ivory Laid

The 'Gurney Ivory Laid' watermarked letters did not appear in the first edition (2002) of Cornwell's book, but do appear in the paperback edition (2003), as stated. Cornwell's researcher located some Sickert letters in California and three of them, written on his mother's stationery, bore the above watermark. According to Cornwell Peter Bower's discovery was that the three Sickert letters and two 'Ripper letters' come from 'a batch of twenty-four sheets of stationery with the watermark Gurney Ivory Laid. Bower reached this conclusion as, according to him, the manufacturers of this writing paper 'made relatively short runs of papers such as stationery, the sheets roughly guillotined to size and then folded and divided into quires of twenty-four sheets. Each individual quire of paper was then given a final trim in a hand-fed guillotine. Every guillotining would produce very slightly different turns. The match between the short edge cuts of the four identified sheets shows they came from the same quire of paper ... [or] group of 24 sheets.'

Put simply Peter Bower claims to have identified two Ripper letters and three Sickert letters as coming from the same batch of manufacturer's paper as identified by the pattern of the guillotine cut to the paper (which would be unique to that batch of 24) if you follow me. We are, apparently, not told the dates that these letters were written. A further Sickert letter was discovered in the British Library, written around 1890, which was addressed to a Miss E Case who had invited Sickert and his wife to a social event. Sickert's reply, apparently, is on the same Gurney Ivory Laid paper from the same batch of 24 as the two other Sickert letters and two Ripper letters on GIL paper.

This is all according to Peter Bower and is mainly based on the guillotining cut pattern on the edge of the paper. A claim is also made that four of the City letters signed 'Nemo' on Joynson Superfine paper were written by Sickert who used 'Mr Nemo' as a stage name. I am not sure how the positive identification was made here as on the next page of the book the phrase 'probably match' is used in relation to two of the Nemo letters and with the other two the phrase 'definitely matches' is used. There then follows a breakdown of Ripper-related letters claimed to have been written by Sickert which I would recommend a study of should anyone be that interested.

Peter Bower, I am not aware that he is a professor, is undoubtedly a paper expert and highly experienced. He knows more about paper than I ever will. Personally I remain unconvinced and I doubt that Sickert wrote any Ripper-related letter.

[Jeff Leahy]

Absolutely Stewart many thanks...

I would imagine that this is the area Keith Skinner is researching but I guess you would have a better idea than I.

We will have to wait for the Next Addition of PC's book..which will not have the title 'case closed' on the cover.

Lets at least give Keith the courtesy of finding out....

If Sickert did Hoax letters that would open up a big can of worms.

Jeff

[Jenni Shelden]

Jeff,

i dont see what can of worms that would open mate. but anyway, i doubt its true...

Jenni

[Jeff Leahy]

Possibly Jen

But it still seems to be a justifiable area of research..its what Ripperology is about.

[Stewart P Evans]

What Eaxactly...?

Absolutely Stewart many thanks...

I would imagine that this is the area Keith Skinner is researching but I guess you would have a better idea than I.

We will have to wait for the Next Addition of PC's book..which will not have the title 'case closed' on the cover.

Lets at least give Keith the courtesy of finding out....

If Sickert did Hoax letters that would open up a big can of worms.

Jeff

What exactly do you mean Jeff when you say that "we will have to wait for the Next Addition of PC's book?" Surely you cannot be suggesting that no one should discuss the claims made in Cornwell's books until she has had the chance to publish a third edition? (Whenever that may be).

I have repeatedly stated that I do not think that Sickert ever wrote a 'Jack the Ripper' letter. I stand by that opinion and I have yet to be shown any evidence that convinces me otherwise. You are paddling in deep waters Jeff and I hope that you have your water wings with you - there is always a danger of drowning.

[Stewart P Evans]

Ripperology

Possibly Jen

But it still seems to be a justifiable area of research..its what Ripperology is about.

Please do not presume to tell me what Ripperology is all about.

[Jeff Leahy]

I have repeatedly stated that I do not think that Sickert ever wrote a 'Jack the Ripper' letter. I stand by that opinion and I have yet to be shown any evidence that convinces me otherwise. You are paddling in deep waters Jeff and I hope that you have your water wings with you - there is always a danger of drowning.

I dont beleive that I have stated that Sickert wrote the letters either. Simply that Peter Bowers findings are interesting and justify further research..

I wouldn't presume....

[anna]

No worries Pirate Jack.....you are entitled believe in whatever you choose and defend it on these boards.

[Stewart P Evans]

Contradict

Please can you give names of these experts you claim contradict Peter Bower?

Peter Bower's claims to positive identification of the said correspondence by reference to the guillotine cut marks have been called into question and are discussed at length in the excellent book Walter Sickert A Life by Matthew Sturgis (2005). Sturgis states (page 640) that "...without fuller information about Bower's workings, other forensic examiners remain sceptical of his very emphatic conclusions." He also states that Kim Hughes of Documentary Evidence Ltd felt that it would be very difficult for any expert to go beyond a statement that separate sheets of paper came from the same batch and had been cut by the same blade. "Allowing for the division of the batch into quires, such a finding would leave the chance of direct connection between Sickert's 'Gurney Ivory Laid' letters and those in the PRO at around 1 in 3,000: a very long way from Bower's assurance of an exact match. Sturges also points out that the handwriting of the two 'Ripper' letters bears no relation to Sickert's script and the Sickert letters all date from late 1889 or early 1890 much later than the Ripper crimes.

You know it always amazed, and worried, me as a police officer that as soon as one expert witness was found to swear his opinion to one 'fact' another expert was found to swear to the opposite opinion. And experts, of course, work for money, usually a lot of it.

[Stewart P Evans]

?

No worries Pirate Jack.....you are entitled believe in whatever you choose and defend it on these boards.

Did anyone say that he wasn't?

[JSchmidt]

I have to admit to some confusion. I have only the 2002 book available, are the letters with the "A Pirie & Sons" left out in the 2003 paperback?
I have also become a bit confused on what kind of paper Peter Bower identified as samples from the same batch. The GIL?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Schmidt

The first addition does not carry this claim..it was updated and released in paper back...Dan Norder simply made a mistake about which letters were being discussed....

In my copy..P224: His amazing discovery is this: three Sickert letters written on his mothers stationery and two Ripper letters come from a batch of twenty-four sheets of stationary with the watermark GURNEY IVORY LAID

The Openshaw letter has the A Pirie watermark and is thius Not the letter Bower makes his claims about.

trust this helps

Yours Jeff

[Tom_Wescott]

Jeff,

Since we all agree that Sickert was not Jack and did not write any of the potentially significant Ripper letters - if he wrote any at all - then why is this so important to you, and how does it qualify as Ripperology?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Stewart P Evans]

Unconvincing

I have to admit to some confusion. I have only the 2002 book available, are the letters with the "A Pirie & Sons" left out in the 2003 paperback?
I have also become a bit confused on what kind of paper Peter Bower identified as samples from the same batch. The GIL?

The 'A. Pirie & Sons' letters still appear in the paperback edition together with the unconvincing mitochondrial DNA claims. The guillotine marked Gurney Ivory Laid letters are a new and different set of letters about which claims of identification are made.