Horrible, horrible paintings and - a body in a river?

[Ausgirl]

I.. tend to agree.

I spent some time, a whiles back and on another thread, looking closely at some of the images Sickert included in his paintings, the paintings a whole and sort of dipping my toe in the Cornwell, as it were (talk about disturbing imagery!). Because I do get a sense of inner darkness from some of his paintings, and I do think he deliberately included some almost subliminal hints regarding the Ripper, for whatever reason. As well as some less subtle..

And, as both an artist and a poet, I come from the camp of thought wherein art should not be viewed wholly independently of the artist.. How difficult it would be to get a grip on some of Plath's poems if one was completely ignorant of the life (and death) of the poet... and conversely, one can see into the artist or the poet a little bit, via the art they produce. Not all of it is as confessional as Plath was, for sure, but there -is- a tad of forensic psychology applicable to art and to poetry, as an expression from a particular living being at a particular point in their lives. Though it should be acknowledged that this applies moreso to artists in their prime, rather than at the beginning of their careers, for various sensible reasons.

Anyway - yes, subjective. But "Jack the Ripper's Bedroom" is a pretty blatant reference, yes? And 'The Camden Town Murder' (yes, yes, alternate titles available, how tantalisingly opaque of him, etc, etc). Not that this is sufficient for a leap into presumption of guilt. But it is a little bit of a window to the soul, I think, however heavily draped.

I always seem to pop in here terribly late, sorry if I'm rambly.

[Graham]

I couldn't agree less about Sickert's style. He was, after all, influenced by Degas, and although perhaps not in the mainstream of Impressionism, he was nearby. I think a lot of us have been down this road before, and so all I'll say about the possibility of Sickert's being Jack the Ripper is: prove that he was anywhere other than Dieppe during the appropriate period in 1888, and I may just think again.

His painting The Camden Town Murder took as its inspiration an actual murder in 1907. I think this painting actually led to a style which became known as the Camden Town School, or some such similar appellation. He liked to paint interior scenes, music hall scenes, and was always interested in urban culture.

I seem to recall that Stephen Knight, or Joseph Sickert or both, claimed that Walter Sickert was some kind of life tutor to Prince Albert Victor, but I don't think it's ever been proven that the two of them ever met.

Jean Overton Fuller was one of the first writers to state categorically that Sickert was the Ripper, but I don't think she ever produced anything even close to proof. (Incidentally, another historical interest of mine is the activities of SOE during WW2, and I was surprised to recently learn that Jean Overton Fuller was the lover of Henri Dericourt, who played a shady and possible double role in the organisation of the Resistance in France.

Sickert's paintings were dark, deep and difficult to penetrate, but they were not, no way, 'horrible, horrible'. I love them.

Graham

[Ausgirl]

I think a lot of us have been down this road before, and so all I'll say about the possibility of Sickert's being Jack the Ripper is: prove that he was anywhere other than Dieppe during the appropriate period in 1888, and I may just think again.

I think I shall have put on my headstone: "I don't think Sickert was the Ripper." As as telegraphing the point in post after post seems to not be working at all.

I do think his interest in murder is worth exploring and discussing and debating, as he was contemporary with the Ripper and did reference those murders and others in some inarguably obvious ways.

I'm not a 'follower' of anything much, let alone particular Ripper theories. But I do like to consider them, sometimes explore them in depth. I'm not here slowly labouring toward making a point in support of some particular theory or other, just to be clear. No gulls, royal carriages, secret studios, teleporting from France, etc.

Sickert's paintings are at times extremely curious and rather morbid, and in them I see dark little hints of things, and I think these are quite deliberate, and this is what to me is worth time to explore and discuss, and that is the sole point of laying fingers to keyboard here entirely.

Sickert's paintings were dark, deep and difficult to penetrate, but they were not, no way, 'horrible, horrible'. I love them.

Here, we must agree to disagree. I think -some- were indeed 'horrible', in both perception and intent. At least one of them actually repulses me as is obvious enough. But that's not to say I dislike his art in general. The bulk of it is very agreeable, and all of it fine in execution. No pun intended.

I'm not sure how exactly we disagree on "Sickert's style"? Unless that was it.

[RivkahChaya]

Case in point: This absolutely horrible picture titled "Chicken".

Sickert has painted someone who looks like this in another painting. I don't know whether it is the same person, but it loos like someone who has a genetic syndrome called "Apert's Syndrome." In particular, it looks like a child with it. If you happen to have a mild case of it, it isn't especially serious, other than, it gets you teased. If it's serious, it can cause breathing problems, eye problems, and hearing impairment. Now, all these things can be treated-- the hearing problem usually isn't very serious, and people use modern, digital hearing aids pretty successfully. The face can be reconstructed surgically, in what is a complicated, multi-step process, but when it is over, the results are amazing.

Cosmetic surgeons are often vilified in the media, but the fact is, the huge profits they make doing rhinoplasties and tummy tucks on rich people, they often roll over into correcting things like Apert's Syndrome for children pro bono.

I don't know why this painting is called "Chicken," but if Sickert knew someone with Apert's Syndrome, and did her portrait, so what? maybe "Chicken" was her nickname in life, and he didn't bestow it. Or, maybe he saw a girl with the syndrome, and thought it would be interesting to use a model who was not typical. There's really nothing wrong with that. It just makes him "not-Norman Rockwell."

Here's another painting, titled Miss Earhart's Arrival.

In 1932, when this picture was painted, Earhart had in fact, made an emergency landing in a Londonberry field after taking off in Newfoundland. She was plagued by icy wind, and had gone off-course for a while. The press covered the landing. She probably did look awful, and if Sickert wasn't personally there, he may have seen Earhart only in newspaper images, which meant black & white, and may have chosen to have her exit the plane looking like a newspaper photograph, something which might have been more obvious to people in 1932.

Here's some subtle Sickert horror: "Self Portrait"

In my experience, self-portraits are often distorted.

Speaking of limbs - the famous detail from "Ennui".

The figure is often supposed to be 'Queen Victoria'. But if you look at it, its arms are not actually connected to its body at all. And what is taken for 'green fur' or 'bushes' looks to me a lot like water. The whole looks rather like a chopped up person being thrown into a river. Which tends to make an odd kind of sense in a painting like 'Ennui', where a murder might seem something like a relief.

Apparently that is a sort-of copy of an actual painting of Queen Victoria, which is why it has been identified as such. I don't think the arms look detached, but the whole thing is quite undignified, which is probably some kind of comment on Ennui and "Victorianism." Also, there's some kind of figure behind it which, to me, looks like Max Schrek in Nosferatu (1922), which if course it can't be, since the film hadn't come out yet. If I zoom in much closer, it starts to look like a whole figure, staring up, seen from a bird's eye view, which means we have some kind of bizarre angle than bends downward. Also, the "Victoria" figure seems to be looking forward and sideways at the same time, but that is a feature of painting at this time. Picasso made millions off it.

It's also a feature of impressionism that something which looks perfectly clear from a distance isn't so clear close up, and that is true with number of these pictures, something you can't really appreciate looking at them on a computer screen. If you are able to see them in a gallery, do so. If not, try at least printing out the highest resolution images you can, on say, four sheets of 8.5 x 11 paper (or whatever standard college paper is in the UK) and then put them on the wall, and stand closer and farther away.

Also, compare Sickert to other people who used similar colors, like Goya, or distortion for effect, like El Greco.

Sickert's time period was influential too, I think, in that he read a lot of newspapers, seriously a lot. He was aware of what was happening around him, but also of the emerging craft of photojournalism. I think seeing the way that news photos, flash photo was invented, could capture raw humanity, influenced the way he painted. I think even blurry photos and films may have influenced him, and some of what we think of just a kind of impressionism may have been an attempt to capture motion blur.

[Mayerling]

Funny thing about Sickert is that he is probably the only Ripper suspect whose name recognition (as a well known celebrity in his own right) was enhanced by Cornwall's book. Even if you don't accept her ideas, to the general public she did put Sickert "on the map".

As for his interest in the Ripper Case, he blabbed about it apparently at the drop of a hat. One of his points of discussion (that Sitwell mentioned) was the story of the mysterious boarder who only went out at night (later turned by Mrs. Belloc Lowndes into "The Lodger"). He apparently mentioned it to his friends Max Beerbohm and William Rothenstein, and Beerbohm made a comment about Sitwell knowing the name of the Ripper, and writing it in a book belonging to Rothenstein (which was subsequently destroyed in World War II). By the way, while he and Beerbohm were friendly the latter would do caricatures of Sickert showing him on the edge of crowds sort of lurking. I just mention that in passing as odd.

But Sitwell also mentioned that the Whitechapel Murders were not the only crime that interested Sickert - he was fascinated by the "Tichborne Claimant" Mystery and trial. And (although used by Cornwall to draw odd connections between Mary Kelly's murder and his canvasses) Sickert did do that series of paintings about the 1907 "Camden Town" murder of Phyllis Dimmock - possibly (I think anyway) because the defendant who was tried but acquitted was a fellow artist, Robert Wood.

Jeff

[Beowulf]

As for his interest in the Ripper Case, he blabbed about it apparently at the drop of a hat. One of his points of discussion (that Sitwell mentioned) was the story of the mysterious boarder who only went out at night (later turned by Mrs. Belloc Lowndes into "The Lodger"). He apparently mentioned it to his friends Max Beerbohm and William Rothenstein, and Beerbohm made a comment about Sitwell knowing the name of the Ripper, and writing it in a book belonging to Rothenstein (which was subsequently destroyed in World War II). By the way, while he and Beerbohm were friendly the latter would do caricatures of Sickert showing him on the edge of crowds sort of lurking. I just mention that in passing as odd.

Jeff

The thing I found interesting about Sickert was that he rented an apartment he said was lived in by Jack the Ripper. I think the landlady is who told him and I'd love to know more about that.

[RivkahChaya]

The thing I found interesting about Sickert was that he rented an apartment he said was lived in by Jack the Ripper. I think the landlady is who told him and I'd love to know more about that.

Yeah. I'd love to know if Sickert's landlady ever went to the same dinner party as Mrs. Belloc-Lowndes.

No one who posts to this board is in any position to say that having more than a passing interest in a crime is an indication of anything.

[Ausgirl]

'Chicken' was the nickname of the music hall performer he hired as a model from 1914-16, and who also featured in his rather nice series of girl-with-piano paintings, including 'Tipperary'.

[Rosey O'Ryan]

'Chicken' was the nickname of the music hall performer he hired as a model from 1914-16, and who also featured in his rather nice series of girl-with-piano paintings, including 'Tipperary'.

Hi Ausgirl.

Many thanks for posting your thoughts and observations, or 'tother-way' round. I enjoyed this moment's thread as a poem of sorts with "horrible", and dark connotations, you are as sharp as the Ripper's blade.
Concerning the emotion expressing disgust we try to 'deal' withit within.
So, do you believe that Sickert scrawled the words, "Jack the Ripper's Bedroom", on the reverse of one of his paintings?

As Ever,
Rosey

[Bridewell]

Sickert's name is often mentioned in connection with Dr. William Gull and John Netley

Mentioned by who?

[Scott Nelson]

No one who posts to this board is in any position to say that having more than a passing interest in a crime is an indication of anything.

What a strange thing to say.

[Rosey O'Ryan]

Hi Ausgirl.

Many thanks for posting your thoughts and observations, or 'tother-way' round. I enjoyed this moment's thread as a poem of sorts with "horrible", and dark connotations, you are as sharp as the Ripper's blade.
Concerning the emotion expressing disgust we try to 'deal' withit within.
So, do you believe that Sickert scrawled the words, "Jack the Ripper's Bedroom", on the reverse of one of his paintings?

As Ever,
Rosey

Ausgirl,

Have you thought about my parting question concerning authenti-fication (That's a big word). I.E., What is and is not real?
I will relate a tale of Cosmo-politan perspective concerning a conversation in the major art gallery in Manchester, England, many years ago. Speaking with the senior conservator, I pointed out the Sickert painting entitled, "Venetian Blind", and requested it be photographed on commission for yours truly (Rosey).
Would you believe it... now, it was entitled "Jack the Ripper's Bedroom"! (See, "AtoZ"). Beware Realitycreep!!!

As Ever
Rosey

[Phil H]

Sickert's name is often mentioned in connection with Dr. William Gull and John Netley

Mentioned by who?

This is all Stephen Knight, based on "Hobo" Sickert/Gorman's testimony. It is all now known to be nonsense. Joe Gorman later gave a different tale involving Lord Randolph Churchill.

That is not to say that Netley and his history as a coachman might not have been known to the Gorman family - but he was almost certainly not involved with JtR.

Netley and Gull also feature prominently in the 1988 Michael Caine TV mini-series - again not a reliable source I suggest.

Phil

[Ausgirl]

Rosey, my - but it IS a big word! Quite a mouthful.

Manchester Gallery clearly need a smacked botty, if they can't be bothered authenti-whatsit-ing the titles of the works in their collection.

Perhaps they're just being twee.

[Rosey O'Ryan]

Rosey, my - but it IS a big word! Quite a mouthful.

Manchester Gallery clearly need a smacked botty, if they can't be bothered authenti-whatsit-ing the titles of the works in their collection.

Perhaps they're just being twee.

Ausgirl,

Gosh, I still wonder about what happens with these items when they merge with the temporal flow, in general and particular. "A smacked botty" ! Erm, have to think about that.
If it is actually "Ventian Blind"...not so 'horrible' after all! End of psychology lesson for today

As Ever,

Rosey.