Why was sickert so interested in JtR?

[Phil H]

Sickert was a VERY powerful artist - I specifically went to the Royal Academy exhibition of his work some years ago and still have the catalogue.

His music hall series is VERY evocative, and Sickert was a huge influence on the next generation of british artists.

Phil H

[RavenDarkendale]

Sickert was a VERY powerful artist - I specifically went to the Royal Academy exhibition of his work some years ago and still have the catalogue.

His music hall series is VERY evocative, and Sickert was a huge influence on the next generation of british artists.

Phil H

Hello Phil

Art is one thing that most definitely in the eye of the beholder. I am often told that I have no appreciation of artistic talent, since I find Rembrandt's artwork frankly ugly, much of "Cubism" off it, and Jason Pollack ridiculous. If I find Sickert's art not to my taste, it's only me, mon ami. Feel free to extol his genius, and not need to feel defensive!

God Bless

Darkendale

[Phil H]

Dale

My point was that Sickert was influential on the next generation of bitish artists - which IS a more objective measure, I think. He is perceived I believe, as a major British artist of his period.

Seen for real, also, his canvases are impressive - more so than they can appear in an book illustration.

I wouldn't want any newer students of the case, or those unfamiliar with Sickert, to gain the conclusion that he was of only minor importance. He isn't quite up with the French impressionists maybe, but he should not be marginalised too much.

Cordially, Phil

[miss marple]

Sickert was very influenced by Degas. There was a trend to realism in the late 19th century, in literature and art.Painting ordinary working people, in everyday situations, often drab or cynical, such as pubs, brothels, music halls, race meetings, dreary rooms, etc. Degas was a pioneer in the use of photographs, to aid his art, as indeed was Sickert, who also used newspaper images.
Anyone interested in Sickert should read his art criticism, to understand his perspective on painting. He was not interested in ' society' portraits or staged beauties but the humanity of the average woman. The small dramas of everyday life were his bread and butter.
Sickert was very influential on the British School, but he was not a French or English painter.

Its a shame Darkdale ,you don't like Rembrandt, perhaps you have not seen enough of them. Rembrandt is one of the great painters of the human condition showing psychological insight, tenderness and humanity.

Miss Marple

[Limehouse]

Sickert was very influenced by Degas. There was a trend to realism in the late 19th century, in literature and art.Painting ordinary working people, in everyday situations, often drab or cynical, such as pubs, brothels, music halls, race meetings, dreary rooms, etc. Degas was a pioneer in the use of photographs, to aid his art, as indeed was Sickert, who also used newspaper images.
Anyone interested in Sickert should read his art criticism, to understand his perspective on painting. He was not interested in ' society' portraits or staged beauties but the humanity of the average woman. The small dramas of everyday life were his bread and butter.
Sickert was very influential on the British School, but he was not a French or English painter.

Its a shame Darkdale ,you don't like Rembrandt, perhaps you have not seen enough of them. Rembrandt is one of the great painters of the human condition showing psychological insight, tenderness and humanity.

Miss Marple

An excellent post Miss Marple, and precisely what I have been trying to communicate. A lot of Sickert's work was 'narrative' in purpose and style and it is a great pity that the 'humanity' you describe so well was mistaken for psychopathic murderous inclination!

Julie

[miss marple]

Thanks Julie. It is sad that people cant see the wood for the trees,rather they spend so long looking at leaves through a microscope they miss the wood entirely!The obsession with brush strokes and anagrams proves nothing. Artists don't analyse every brush stroke, [ they would go mad if they did] most are random but focussed. [e.g a dab of white just there]
If people are determined to see faces on mars or serial killers in the stroke of a brush, no logic will change their minds

Miss Marple

[Sherlock Holmes]

Is it just me or does Sickert have an unhealthy fascination with the ripper and is there any reason why (other than to nab herself a tenant) the landlady would (presumably) lie to Sickert?

Mr Holmes

[Limehouse]

Is it just me or does Sickert have an unhealthy fascination with the ripper and is there any reason why (other than to nab herself a tenant) the landlady would (presumably) lie to Sickert?

Mr Holmes

Respectfully Mr Holmes, it could be argued that a great many people have (or had) an unhealthy fascination with the ripper, including members of this site!

Scores of people have made up stories to 'write themselves' into the ripper story. Some of them were contemporary with the ripper crimes and some had family members who were around at the time. Many is the east end family history story that includes an 'encounter' with the ripper or a ripper victim. My childhood was littered with overheard whispered conversations about various great aunties or neighbours who knew the identity of Jack because he was their Sunday School teacher or their butcher or some such story.

So, would the landlady lie or did she really believe one of her former lodgers was the killer? Well, Druitt's family thought HE was the killer and this must have happened all over London. A stranger rents a room, a family member starts behaving oddly, cousin Freddie stayed out all night on the date of the double killing and so on and 'they' become a ripper suspect.

Previous posts describe Sickert's artistic style and choice of subject matter. His output was huge and his range of topics and subjects equally large.

Incidently, as Sherlock Holmes, don't YOU have an unhealthy appetite for murder and death??

[Sherlock Holmes]

Yes this much is true but why if he was just an artist did he hang around the scenes on the nights of the murders? (many newspaper articles mention someone of Sickert's description). Surely he could get his images from the paper or go down some time later? Why the night of the murders

Mr Holmes

[miss marple]

Mr Holmes,
Where do you get the idea that Sickert 'hung around 'the scenes of the murders.? He did not, he was in France.The only verified' murder' painting Sickert did was based on the Camden Town murder of prostitute Emily Dimmock in 1907.
An important picture in the development of the Realist tradition.
As I have said before Sickert was influenced by popular culture and used newspaper images and photos. Sickert like many artists before and since painted nudes on beds.
He was a man of wide ranging interests about from painting, writing, food, music hall, popular culture of all kinds. He was also fascinated by the Titchbourne Claimant case as much as J.R.He was a great story teller and less obsessed by the ripper than you, he had so much going on in his life.

Miss Marple

[Limehouse]

I agree Miss marple. there is absolutely no evidence what so ever to suggest Sickert hung around the murdere scenes and I've never read a newspaper report claiming this. Additionally, as you state, and as has been stated many times, Sickert was in France at the time of the murders.

I don't know how many times it has to be said. Sickert was not obsessed with the Ripper. If you don't believe it, go online and do some research. Look at the huge range of paintings and sketches he did. Look at the array of topics. Look at the narrative style and look at the sensitivity in the paintings.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Mr Holmes,
Where do you get the idea that Sickert 'hung around 'the scenes of the murders.? He did not, he was in France.The only verified' murder' painting Sickert did was based on the Camden Town murder of prostitute Emily Dimmock in 1907.
An important picture in the development of the Realist tradition.
As I have said before Sickert was influenced by popular culture and used newspaper images and photos. Sickert like many artists before and since painted nudes on beds.
He was a man of wide ranging interests about from painting, writing, food, music hall, popular culture of all kinds. He was also fascinated by the Titchbourne Claimant case as much as J.R.He was a great story teller and less obsessed by the ripper than you, he had so much going on in his life.

Miss Marple

Miss Marple my dear
I respectfully must disagree can you prove that Sickert WAS out of the country at the time? there were no migration records in 1800 if there were his leaving the country would have been documented on at least 2 (that of England and in this case France)

Please feel free to private message me anything you find that disproves the above. I will gladly admit my mistake

Mr Holmes

[Phil H]

there were no migration records in 1800

I trust you refer to the whole C19th. The Ripper murders took place in 1888.

As far as I am aware, a passport would have been required in 1800 or 1888, to travel from Britain to France. If someone had a passport - and Sickert must have had one given his known residence in France - I don't know whether any questions would have been asked or records kept.

If Miss Marple or anyone else has an answer, I would like to see it on the face of the thread please, where we can all benefit.

Phil H

[RavenDarkendale]

@ Phil H and Miss Marple

Guys, as I said art is in the eye of the beholder. I am reliably informed that Andrew Warhol is an artistic genius, but all I see are those Campbell soup cans and varicolored Marylin Monroes. Some of Sickert's women have faces that he either couldn't be bothered to finish, or that he forgot to detail, and are hideous.

The paintings are no reason to suspect he was JtR, however. To each artist his or her strengths and weaknesses, without seeking for reasons why they painted as they did. I love Van Gogh, but his self portraits minus his ear he cut off himself is sort of eerie.

God Bless

Darkendale

[Phil H]

Dale

Many of Michelangelo's later sculptures are unfinished, unpolished, but they remain some of the world's greatest works of art. They do not NEED to be fully hewn or carved, they already say enough.

The impressionists were hated in their day because they did not produce the highly detailed, "finished" canvases of an Ingres - yet today those same paintings are among the most loved and valuable on the planet (and those who appreciate them include you).

Sickert was part of that momentum. Seen in real life the canvases are much more powerful and commanding then in illustrations, I can assure you.

Tastes change and artists change taste. Without experimentation we would have a culture like that af the ancient Egyptians, where art remained stuck in the same idiom for millenia.

I don't like the work of Tracey Emin (the unmade bed etc) but she has created icons that many can relate to. Picassio's modernist works leave me cold, but I can glimpse what he was trying to say. Warhol took icons and made icons of them, he was pointing, I think in film and canvas, to the mundanity of modern culture and "15 minutes of fame".

What I do or do not like in art, I firmly believe, says something about me and nothing about the artist.

Sickert was influential, a new generation built on foundations he helped create. That says much to me.

Colin Wilson (I think in his 1988 book) once commented that no artist had ever been a murderer. Anyone know whether that is true. I'm not sure it can be, but Wilson was regarded once as a major criminologist.

Phil H