Who's who

[Eileen]

I believed before, Patricia Cornwell brought out her book that it was indeed Walter Sickert.
He lived in the East end at the time of the murders, whenever he would go to France was the only times when the east end seemed quiet but not over there murders happened that were exact in nature to those of whitechapel's infamous ripper killing's.
He has a painting called "The camden town murder" as he portrayed it in the picture is how a woman who lived round the corner from him was killed she was working as a prostitute while her partner was at work.
When he left whitechapel the murders stopped when he wasnt in France they stopped, When he left Camden they stopped but no matter where he went they would happen! I am not the only one to have belived it was this derranged scychopathic schizo "lol".
But very few have been able to prove it untill the water mark that was definitive proof possibly of his involvement, There is also the possibilitie which is a crazed one but can make sense that Mary jane kelly as is known did work as an artist model for some time, & possibly already knew him that's why she didn't feel scared around him that night & apparently looked comfortable. But truth be told who will really ever know!

[Celesta]

Hello Eileen,

Welcome to the Casebook. I hope you'll enjoy your time spent here.

There is a lot about Cornwell and Sickert here, under the Suspects index on the Message Boards. I hate to disillusion you, but you'll find that many people here discount Sickert as a suspect. If you explore the threads on Sickert, you will find that a number of knowledgeable people have discussed this. I believe that number of people started out on the site believing that Sickert was the Ripper, but over time, many have changed their minds, as they became more and more knowledgeable about the cases.

Where did you hear that Mary Kelly had been an artist's model?

My best to you,

Cel

[Mike Covell]

Jean Overton Fuller wrote "Sickert and the Ripper crimes" which is an excellent book, and pre-dates Cornwell's book. The revised addition of Fuller's book is available again, after being out of print for some time.

The book features alleged family recollections of Mary Kelly as a nanny and model, and covers the Cleveland street scandal too.

It has a chapter on Sickerts art, and what they are supposed to mean, and several theories put forward by Stephen Knight are rubbished!

The revised bits and pieces look at Cornwell, and what appears to be allegations of plagirism!

All interesting stuff, but it will take a lot to convince me Sickert was Jack!

[Chris Scott]

Hi Eileen
You wrote in yout first post:
"He lived in the East end at the time of the murders"
Throughout the whole period of the murders Sickert, when he was in the country, lived at 54 Broadhurst Gardens, South Hampstead.
I am attaching below part of the notes I made on Sickert for some recent research. This covers the period of the murders.
Hope this helps
Chris


Sickert Residences

1885: Marries Ellen Cobden.
Couple spent the summer at Maison Goude, 21 Rue de Sygogne, Dieppe
November: London. The couple live briefly at 38 Albany Street
December: Couple move to 54 Broadhurst Gardens, South Hampstead

1886:
June: Sickert goes to Paris
21 July: Couple go to Switzerland
October: Couple return to London

1887:
Summer: Couple go to Antwerp and Schveningen

1888:
Early August to late September: With mother and brothers Bernhard, Oswald and Leonard at St Valery en Caux

1889:
Summer: Sickert goes to Paris with Degas

1890:
April: Moves from 54 Broadhurst Gardens, South Hampstead to mother's house at Pembroke Gardens
Summer: Visits Dieppe
Autums: Couple stay with Jane Cobden at 10 Hereford Square, South Kensington. Sickert rents a studio at 53 Glebe Place. Chelsea.

[Celesta]

Hi Eileen,

There's also this for you to look at:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-pamandsickert.html

[Dan Norder]

He lived in the East end at the time of the murders

No he didn't.

whenever he would go to France was the only times when the east end seemed quiet

No. Quite the opposite, in fact. When he came back from France was when there was the first major lull in Ripper murders (October 1888).

but not over there murders happened that were exact in nature to those of whitechapel's infamous ripper killing's.

No... and I don't know where on earth you could have come up with such an idea. What murders do you think you are talking about? Please provide the names and dates of these murders, if you have any, because I've never heard anyone make that claim. Without details I'm afraid it looks like it's just something you thought you heard but were mistaken.

[Leighton Young]

the theory that Sickert was the killer is silly. ive read the whole case closed book and if Patricia Cornwell actually followes police and detectiv eprotocol then god help us all.
sickert was indeed "into" the murders as was most people in 1888 and just as we all are here. I can see no proof that he killed anyone. i get the impression that he's a very beg headed chap who's boastfull and likes to be the centre of attention but i dont see how or why he would kill let alone murder in the style that the ripper did.

[kensei]

He has a painting called "The camden town murder" as he portrayed it in the picture is how a woman who lived round the corner from him was killed she was working as a prostitute while her partner was at work.

I had strong feelings about Sickert as a suspect after reading Cornwell like a lot of people but am now very much on the fence about him after learning more. As for the Camden murder, the victim was Emily Dimmock, in her early 20s while Sickert was in his late 40s (he was 28 at the time of the Ripper murders), her "partner" was actually her husband who was out of town a lot, and she was found murdered face-down while the woman in the painting is face-up. Also, I have just returned from a vacation to England during which I did a thorough solo Ripper tour and since I was there I also decided to check out the sites associated with the theory of Sickert being involved in the Camden Murder. Sickert's home was hardly "round the corner" from Emily's. I put considerable wear on my shoes and ate up a lot of time walking from one to the other.

Having said that, there is still the story that Sickert is supposed to have shown up at the murder site while the police were on the scene, artist's supplies in hand, asked what was going on and then asked if he could go inside and sketch the body. Being well known, he was given permission. After having taken the walk, I was left thinking that no one lugging art supplies around would walk that far and stumble on a scene like that just by chance. IF that story is true I've always thought he should have at least been a person of interest in the case, but I understand it is only an unconfirmed anecdote.

I was also left thinking that I'm not sure if "Sickert as Ripper suspect" and "Sickert as Camden Town Murder suspect" are even necessarily the same question.

[Eileen]

To Celesta I read it in a book many years ago it was based on sickert I have heard some crap thou like the fact that she was a nanny that I dont believe I have always thought it was him who knows it could have been there are so many suspects I hate to dissilusion u but I am 28 years old I have only been studying these murders since I was 9 but I still have alot to learn thanks for the help, Eileen

[Eileen]

Jean Overton Fuller wrote "Sickert and the Ripper crimes" which is an excellent book, and pre-dates Cornwell's book. The revised addition of Fuller's book is available again, after being out of print for some time.

The book features alleged family recollections of Mary Kelly as a nanny and model, and covers the Cleveland street scandal too.

It has a chapter on Sickerts art, and what they are supposed to mean, and several theories put forward by Stephen Knight are rubbished!

The revised bits and pieces look at Cornwell, and what appears to be allegations of plagirism!

All interesting stuff, but it will take a lot to convince me Sickert was Jack!

Thanks' Mike it will take me alot to convince me that it isn't Walter Sickert, The nanny thing I do not belive there has been alot of propaganda surrounding these murders that I will have to agree with. There is a chance that she was an artiat model as Mary Kelly did tell freinds on occassions that she did work sometime as an artist model in France!, Thanks Eileen

[Eileen]

Hi Kensi partner, husband the same thing just not in wording I am married & many times refer to my other half as my partner as for the round the corner thing that is what I read in the book that his home was not to far from hers. Yes that was her name Emily Dimmock, So point be I might be wrong bout round the corner but that would mean da author was if so be how many books do we trust in where one man has incorrctly placed things. Thanks, Eileen

[Eileen]

Hi Eileen
You wrote in yout first post:
"He lived in the East end at the time of the murders"
Throughout the whole period of the murders Sickert, when he was in the country, lived at 54 Broadhurst Gardens, South Hampstead.
I am attaching below part of the notes I made on Sickert for some recent research. This covers the period of the murders.
Hope this helps
Chris


Sickert Residences

1885: Marries Ellen Cobden.
Couple spent the summer at Maison Goude, 21 Rue de Sygogne, Dieppe
November: London. The couple live briefly at 38 Albany Street
December: Couple move to 54 Broadhurst Gardens, South Hampstead

1886:
June: Sickert goes to Paris
21 July: Couple go to Switzerland
October: Couple return to London

1887:
Summer: Couple go to Antwerp and Schveningen

1888:
Early August to late September: With mother and brothers Bernhard, Oswald and Leonard at St Valery en Caux

1889:
Summer: Sickert goes to Paris with Degas

1890:
April: Moves from 54 Broadhurst Gardens, South Hampstead to mother's house at Pembroke Gardens
Summer: Visits Dieppe
Autums: Couple stay with Jane Cobden at 10 Hereford Square, South Kensington. Sickert rents a studio at 53 Glebe Place. Chelsea.

True! I know of those residings but I did read that he stayed in Whitechapel for some time in Patricia Cornwells book maybe she a fantacist "lol" I have been reading about Jack the Ripper since I was young I am in my late 20's you always learn something new, thanks Eileen

[Eileen]

No he didn't.



No. Quite the opposite, in fact. When he came back from France was when there was the first major lull in Ripper murders (October 1888).



No... and I don't know where on earth you could have come up with such an idea. What murders do you think you are talking about? Please provide the names and dates of these murders, if you have any, because I've never heard anyone make that claim. Without details I'm afraid it looks like it's just something you thought you heard but were mistaken.

Oh my god take a chill pill people what makes you so damb sure I am wrong I know you only got your information out of a book your information comes just like mine you don't need to be so direct other people have helped me out without being an arse!

[Eileen]

who know's it's always the quiet one's

[needler]

Actually, Eileen, all the information quoted by Dan has been verified with all sorts of census, residence, parish, etc. information....none of it just "came from a book" somewhere. And, I'm sorry to say you just missed a lengthy and quite heated discussion about your theory. Possibly you should go back and read the threads on Sickert and Cornwell. All your accusations (and more, I might add) are addressed there, and, if you indeed have an open mind, you should admit that all are pretty fairly debunked.

Every single one of us has had a favoured suspect over the years, and ALMOST all of us pretty much agree that we favoured the wrong guy!! AND, if truth be told, I would bet that almost all of us would admit we favoured one suspect over another because of some book we had read. Those of us who will admit to our real age had few Ripper books available for a lot of years; I freely admit I'm one of those. I was 10 when I first read Stewart, and now I'm 62, so you do the maths. After more than a few years reading every Ripper book written in English (and more than a few translations), I tend to view all this rubbish about Sickert as just that and no more....just rubbish. Poor Sickert just happens to be the flavour of the month, Eileen; this too shall pass as soon as some other novelist who fancies him- or herself a true crime investigator decides to write a CASE CLOSED Ripper book.

Personally, I still favour Queen Victoria in lifts and a false mustache, but that's just me..........I can't seem to find ANYONE who will help me prove my theory through long and tedious minutes of research!! Go figure!

Cheers,

Judy