new evidence: Ostrog's Banstead admission and release records at the LMA

[Tom_Wescott]

Has Rob been slacking again in his responsibilities to let us all know what has and hasn't been researched? Should we replace him or assign him an assistant?

Also, Maria, you should find a doppleganger, ala Dr. Cream, to attend all your conferences for you. Or at least you could split them up. You take Mon, Wed, and Friday, and your look-alike could take Tue, Thur, and the weekends.

I'm just trying to find solutions here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

I already have them.

OK, less work for me then. Are the pics posted anywhere on casebook?

Quote mariab:
the microfilm reference today is X113/104

I think you will find I told you that as well.

Absolutely NOT, you told me to go locate microfilm X/20/65 as mentioned my Sugden. But never mind.

These were case files I checked: H22/BAN/B/11/001 I don't think there are any others.

Thank you so much for the information. I assume nothing of interest was in these case files?

[mariab]

My only suggestion previously was the case files, and I believe Rob has checked them.

I was planning to check the case files tomorrow, but I'll email Rob and see if he has checked them all in their entirety. Plus I see that in your post #4 you mention “checking a photo of the page that Rob kindly sent me {to Chris} a few months ago“, about which I assume it's the files I “found“ today and about which I had NO idea that Rob already had shot them! We really need to communicate better, cuz it's kinda hilarious. We were sitting for hours looking at the flies in the wall at that pub the other night, and noone thought of discussing the sources. :-)
Anyway, I'll email Rob the pics and you guys will know if they are posted somewhere else already.

[Rob Clack]

My only suggestion previously was the case files, and I believe Rob has checked them.

Hi Chris,

These were case files I checked:

H22/BAN/B/11/001

I don't think there are any others.

Rob

[Rob Clack]

I know you went though them, Rob, but I went through everything from scratch, as I wasn't sure what you had looked into and what not. It was not too many materials, just 7 different reference numbers/ “dossiers“/ whatever you'd call them from the 1890s. I was done in about 2 hours.
Do you want me to email you the pics? (There are just 3.)

I already have them.

As for the microfilm X/20/65, cited by Sugden on p. 480 of his book, it does NOT pertain to the Macnaghten letter. Sugden put footnote nr. 12 on p. XVIII of his book instead of p. XVII/second paragraph from below, making it appear as if microfilm X/20/65 referred to the Macnaghten letter, while it actually refers to the St. Giles Workshop records, where Ostrog was briefly committed, before he was transfered to Banstead. The microfilm reference today is X113/104 and it's available. I went through it very-very quickly and didn't find Ostrog (the listings are not strictly alphabetical/chronological), but anyone else is strongly adviced to go consult it and knock themselves out. I was more interested in and concentrated on the Macnaghten letter.

I think you will find I told you that as well.

Rob

[Chris]

Does Chris have any idea of where this letter might be today? :-)

My only suggestion previously was the case files, and I believe Rob has checked them.

[mariab]

Originally posted by mariab:
- Did Chris Phillips try to/managed to locate the Macnagthen letter to the Banstead Superintendant in 2008?

No he didn't.

Does Chris have any idea of where this letter might be today? :-)

[mariab]

Ostrog sources at the LMA

I said I didn't have the reference numbers for the items that I had used on Friday but to save you wasting your time I said don't bother with the admission books and the visitors book. As I had gone through them.

I know you went though them, Rob, but I went through everything from scratch, as I wasn't sure what you had looked into and what not. It was not too many materials, just 7 different reference numbers/ “dossiers“/ whatever you'd call them from the 1890s. I was done in about 2 hours.
Do you want me to email you the pics? (There are just 3.)

The only 2 items I didn't look up are the ones that are currently not consultable, but will possible be available after October 14, and someone ought to go consult them, in the off-chance that Macnaghten's letter is in there. I'll give you or Mark or Chris the reference numbers when the LMA emails me about their availability. In the worse case, the LMA promised to have a librarian look in there themselves. Unless, again, Chris or someone else has looked into them already in 2008? Reference nr. H22/BAN/A/01/001 and H22/BAN/A/01/001A.

As for the microfilm X/20/65, cited by Sugden on p. 480 of his book, it does NOT pertain to the Macnaghten letter. Sugden put footnote nr. 12 on p. XVIII of his book instead of p. XVII/second paragraph from below, making it appear as if microfilm X/20/65 referred to the Macnaghten letter, while it actually refers to the St. Giles Workshop records, where Ostrog was briefly committed, before he was transfered to Banstead. The microfilm reference today is X113/104 and it's available. I went through it very-very quickly and didn't find Ostrog (the listings are not strictly alphabetical/chronological), but anyone else is strongly adviced to go consult it and knock themselves out. I was more interested in and concentrated on the Macnaghten letter.

By the by, I'm about to email Debra Arif and ask her for the data pertaining to Le Grand's Malborough Courts/Guidhall convictions to look them up in the LMA, so if anyone has already researched those at the LMA it would be nice if they came forward. I don't mind the trouble of re-starting from scratch, but I really wish I hadn't put “new evidence“ on the title of this thread! (At least the pics would be new, if Rob posts them, as far as I know...)

[Chris]

- Did Chris Phillips try to/managed to locate the Macnagthen letter to the Banstead Superintandant in 2008?

No he didn't.

[Rob Clack]

I have said it before and I will say it again. The MM3 are not getting us anywhere. the more that is found, the more connections made with these three, the more it clouds the issue, it seems to me. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is how it is supposed to be that would lead us to any straight connection between a killer and a suspect.

What a load of bollocks.

Yes, but you said you didn't keep the reference numbers and that you didn't find anything, so I had to go through them from scratch. Perhaps the “didn't find anything“ part was a misunderstanding of mine.

I said I didn't have the reference numbers for the items that I had used on Friday but to save you wasting your time I said don't bother with the admission books and the visitors book. As I had gone through them.

Rob

[mariab]

So let me just get this right..
You have said that you have been tracking Ostrog because you suspected some sort of a mix up involving Macnaghten with Le Grande, to do with records abroad

If I might say something “off the record“, at this point I'm even starting to suspect that Macnaghten did the “mixup“ intentionally. Depending on the evidence, I might change my mind about this.

yet these records in England from 1891 show traits in this man that are similar to Kosminski... not Le Grande...
Another demented loony that masturbates, involving Macnaghten's attention.

The masturbation part pertains to the next patient, not Ostrog. It comes fairly often in the Banstead records, by the way.

I have said it before and I will say it again. The MM3 are not getting us anywhere. {...} Nothing, absolutely nothing, is how it is supposed to be that would lead us to any straight connection between a killer and a suspect.

Won't led us to a suspect, but it made lead us to Macnagthen's intentions, or at least to how his brain worked.

I wish you luck in finding something that would give us an indication or tell us why Macnaghten suspected Ostrog.

We need to find the Macnaghten letter and the Superintendant's answer, and if necessary contact Sugden, because, I'm sorry to say, his footnotes simply won't do. (Which is fairly typical for the 1980s.)

[mariab]

I think you will find I told you not to bother with the admission records as I have already gone through them.

Yes, but you said you didn't keep the reference numbers and that you didn't find anything, so I had to go through them from scratch. Perhaps the “didn't find anything“ part was a misunderstanding of mine.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Maria,

So let me just get this right..
You have said that you have been tracking Ostrog because you suspected some sort of a mix up involving Macnaghten with Le Grande, to do with records abroad, yet these records in England from 1891 show traits in this man that are similar to Kosminski... not Le Grande...
Another demented loony that masturbates, involving Macnaghten's attention.

I have said it before and I will say it again. The MM3 are not getting us anywhere. the more that is found, the more connections made with these three, the more it clouds the issue, it seems to me. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is how it is supposed to be that would lead us to any straight connection between a killer and a suspect.

Perhaps I am being cynical. I wonder why.

I wish you luck in finding something that would give us an indication or tell us why Macnaghten suspected Ostrog.


kindly

Phil

[mariab]

You had me worried for a moment there, but checking a photo of the page that Rob kindly sent me a few months ago I see that phrase actually belongs to the next patient's entry.

After checking the pic in question on my camera (I haven't downloaded it yet on my comp), Chris is completely right, and the “Demented, will scarcely answer questions" part really belongs to the next patient (the one who spots “masturbation“ as “supposed cause of insanity“ below Ostrog. The other patient's name is “S. L. Smith“ or something, can't read it too well from my camera.
Endless apologies for the hasty conclusion, my only (very poor) excuse being that a weird guy was sitting next to me at the LMA, making tons of noise and talking to himself while consulting a map, I had to change seats and the librarian had to intervene and scold him. Plus I'm seriously beat.

A couple of questions:
- Do you guys wish me (Rob) to post pics of these sources here?
- Did Chris Phillips try to/managed to locate the Macnagthen letter to the Banstead Superintandant in 2008?
- As far as I know, Rob was at the LMA last Friday (september 30), but he didn't locate any entries for Ostrog? Or did I get this wrong too? It's getting really complicated, and I'd really wish for more open communication about the data. I'm very grateful for Mark to have corrected me and set things straight.

[Rob Clack]

I wish Rob or someone could have told me that Chris Phillips had gone through these records in 2008 already.

I think you will find I told you not to bother with the admission records as I have already gone through them.

Rob