The Curious Case of History vs. James Maybrick

[Herlock Sholmes]

Wonderful echoes of 'The People's Popular Front of Judea' or some such version. Either way, he's over there. And not far away, sit I ...

'Whatever happened to the People's Front of Judea Reg ?"

Best film ever by the way. And I'll accept no debate on that subject

Regards
Herlock

[Iconoclast]

... and one much smaller 'group' [hello Ike] who is 100% prepared to believe it was.

Wonderful echoes of 'The People's Popular Front of Judea' or some such version. Either way, he's over there. And not far away, sit I ...

[caz]

Hi Colin,

That's fine for those who are still interested to know if it's a fake or not, but I'm not sure how many would fall into that category. It appears much more polarised than that, with one large and vocal group who are already 100% satisfied it was not written by Maybrick [yet continue to debate the tiniest points over and over - yes, I know, that would include me ], and one much smaller 'group' [hello Ike] who is 100% prepared to believe it was.

If only we could identify the person who penned the diary we'd then have a sporting chance of answering what, for me, have always been the really interesting questions: the when, the how and the why.

I picked up my first diary book in the shop at the London Dungeon in 1998. We were there to celebrate my daughter's 11th birthday. Soon afterwards I asked her and her father to teach me how to use the computer and get on the internet. And the rest is mystery...

Love,

Caz
X

[Bridewell]

Be honest, Mike, and tell us whose handwriting you think is in the diary. Or be honest and admit you don't have the foggiest idea.

Love,

Caz
X

I don't have the foggiest idea, Caz, and I'm not really interested in finding out. Is it necessary to be able to say whose handwriting it is? Surely, to demonstrate that it is a hoax, the only necessity is to demonstrate whose handwriting it isn't. If it isn't James Maybrick's handwriting then it wasn't written by James Maybrick - and if it wasn't it's a fake.

[caz]

This is remarkable, and yet more proof of people with tunnel-vision seeing whatever they wish to see. You're not only basically denying that people have visible traits within their handwriting that can and are routinely used to determine fraud and forgeries, but you're also of the opinion that people can and do change their entire mannerisms and suddenly erase all of their nuances when they're intoxicated, which is backed up by nothing whatsoever, lol.

Yet many still believe that the handwriting is either Mike's or Anne's.

So let's be honest, Mike, and admit that if either Barrett had penned the thing, their fraudulent little forgery would have been determined years ago.

Be honest, Mike, and tell us whose handwriting you think is in the diary. Or be honest and admit you don't have the foggiest idea.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

People find whatever they like when they're looking desperately, though, Ike. Some people see the image of Jesus on pieces of toast.

I know. It's amazing what desperation does to a gentleman born. Some even see the heart, soul and brain of Michael Barrett in a certain Victorian scrap book.

Bonkers, isn't it? As we all know, Michael Barrett was the last person to be publicly executed in England in May 1868, 20 years before the diary was supposed to have been written. I'm no expert but I'd think that would be impossible.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

...and let's be honest, we know that their research consisted of a few books that weren't hard to get hold of at all.

'We' know nothing of the sort, Mike. Yes, let's be honest about this. You name the few books you know the hoaxer consulted, in order to write every line in the diary, and I'll reconsider what I thought I knew.

Fair enough?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

George Grossmith... need there be any other explanation?

Or one of his ilk, Scotty, with connections to Liverpool and ripper commentators such as George Sims or Melville MacNaghten? A Dan Leno type? Or a 'nest' of old pranksters having a lark?

Love,

Caz
X

[Observer]

By implication, you are suggesting that non-believers are flexible in their positions. I've never seen it, but it must be true if you say so.

A little like all men who ever wrote in copperplate must only have written in copperplate?

Hi Mr Iconoclast

Would the copperplate examples, to which you refer, be the business correspondence of James Maybrick which reside in a certain archive in America?

[Observer]

One hopes not. That would be a very childish waste of people's time and energy.

Mind you, even if Ike truly believes he has 'found' 'MM' by turning the word 'will' upside down, it's still a monumental waste of time and energy trying to reason with him. He's either a kidder or else a True Believer and no amount of reasoning will dissuade him.

Well Henry that's the way it looks to me. Mike JG, who I might add has posted some very wise posts in this thread, apparently frequents a number of the conspiracy theory web-sites, and has seen this ilk before. What I'm referring to of course is the firmly held "belief" that the GSG conceals the names of a number of the participants associated with the Maybrick case. I haven't personally visited said conspiracy theory sites, but I'd be amazed if they contain theories as bizarre as the GSG theory put forward by Mr Iconoclast. It's beyond the pale, it can only be a wind-up in my opinion.

[caz]

If you do think that the hoaxer was purposely allowing for inconsistencies, then why do you not feel that the "Poste House" reference is another one of these purposeful/ignored errors?

When people make stories up, they often fall short on apparently avoidable errors, because they're only human.

Because, Mike, it would have been one of the easier things to get right, or to simply avoid a specific reference if any modern hoaxer didn't know enough about the history of The Poste House in Cumberland Street and couldn't be bothered to find out.

The fact that the diarist misspells 'post haste' as 'poste haste' allows for a similar misspelling of the 'Post House', by someone who was not thinking of the tiny pub in Cumberland Street at the time [hardly big enough to swing a cat o' nine tails], but possibly the term 'poste restante' - the only 'poste' in my Chambers dictionary, and one which would have been in common usage at the right time for the more discerning hoaxer.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

The thing is, though, that I've found absolutely no evidence of the name "poste house" being attributed to any pub of that period. Can these sources of which you speak offer any actual evidence of any pub being known or talked about as "the poste house"?

I even have the "Liverpool Pubs" series of books and can find no mention of this name in there.

I honestly don't see why we need to assume much more than a lack of proper research on the part of the hoaxer, as they specifically mentioned the "Poste House" pub, which is a pub one would assume is very old, because it is, but the pub is far older than its latter-given name.

To me, it's like the forger was merely trying to think of a really old pub, and incorrectly named the Poste House. Trying to shift that to say that they were actually talking about the Old Post Office, but gave it the nickname of the Poste House, is a bit of a reach.

If anyone can point me to some information which states without doubt that the Old Post Office was known locally as the Poste House then I'll be happy to reconsider, but until then, it's an obvious error of the forger and another indicator showing that they really didn't research much at all, and essentially just threw some crap at the wall and hoped it'd stick.

Hi Mike,

Naturally you are welcome to your opinion. I'll stick with the two local sources (one a local pub and history buff in his late sixties, the other the landlord of Rigby's at the time) who didn't hesitate to identify the Old Post Office pub as Liverpool's "post house". I checked my records and Gores directory gives it as the Post Office Tavern in 1887/8. No doubt its regular refreshment takers would have had their own nicknames for it over the years, but it was certainly the post house in its early days, serving as such until the first post office was established adjacent to the old tavern.

Love,

Caz
X

[curious]

Thank you, curious. What is it short for? Curiosity, I wonder? Such a nice name.

Yes, I've taken a few batterings down the years, I can tell you - probably in the Top 3 of The Bruised and Battered, but I come back calmly for I am in possession of the Answer to The Riddle. Ho ho.

In time, you'll all recognise my genius!

Ah, well. Don't we all keep hoping time will . . . recognise your genius, solve this mystery or see me win the lottery?

I'm glad you like my name. I chose curious because I was curious about the subject. My son was writing a play and therefore talking about all the people involved. I knew nothing but wanted to understand what he was saying. So, he directed me here, wrote the play and left. I've remained.

curious

[Mike J. G.]

Mike, I suppose Maybrick was a regular Jekyll and Hyde, to Ike's way of thinking.

That's exactly what we're being asked to believe, Pat. It's certainly a comedy of errors!

[Pcdunn]

Mike, I suppose Maybrick was a regular Jekyll and Hyde, to Ike's way of thinking.