The Manchester Murders

[MayBea]

Would a murder in Bolton be another change of mind, as in the second "Manchester Murder" in London, or was Bolton considered part of Manchester or Greater Manchester in 1888?

http://www.ica-ltd.org/about-ica/our-history/1830-1913/

The railways were key to the development of the Liverpool Cotton Market. It made travelling from Liverpool to the cotton heartlands of Lancashire, especially Manchester, quicker, cheaper, more comfortable and more reliable, especially in winter, when the canals could freeze. The journey between Liverpool and Manchester took four and a half hours by coach, but by rail it took just two; the cost of transporting cotton by canal to Manchester had been as much as 20 shillings per tonne; the railways charged 11 shillings. Furthermore, the transport of cotton was catered for by the railway companies, which provided heavy tarpaulins to cover the goods and built warehouses for the cotton at the end of the line. The journey for spinners going to see their brokers and vice versa fell by over 40%.

[MayBea]

There are two Betsy Culshaws, cotton spinners, in the area. But I think this one is our Betsy Culshaw/Dyson in the 1881 Census.

Betsy Culshaw
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relationship to Head: Daughter (Child)
Mother: Ellen Culshaw
Gender: Female
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Great Bolton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 24 Thomas St
Occupation: Cotton Weaver
Registration district: Bolton
Sub registration district: Bolton Western
Piece: 3843
Folio: 23
Page Number: 40

Household Members:
Name Age
Ellen Culshaw 44
Betsy Culshaw 20
Thomas Culshaw 18
John Culshaw 15
Eliza E. Culshaw 13
Elizabeth A. Culshaw 9

[MayBea]

Doesn't this knowledge of vitriolic (sulphuric acid) attacks reduce the chance of a modern hoaxer, compared to Lipski and the nitric acid, commonly known to modern Ripperologists?

It was not too difficult for me to find a potential substitute on an academic question.

That's if you want to put the forgery "before the horse". Old Hoax Theory posits an author already in the Maybrick circle, or in the know as far as Jim goes, so we already have Jim before the forgery.

With Modern Hoax Theory, he'd have to know how to fake the science. So you could start with the idea of a forgery. But realistically, you should start with someone from Liverpool who's interested in the Ripper who finds Maybrick first. Then decides to create a forgery.

To duplicate that, you'd have to find a candidate where you live in Britain or in a place you have a good working knowledge of.

[Mayerling]

(At least, now I know Franz Ferdinand wasn't Franz Josef's son. That explains why my mother always said we were servants of Franz Josef but never mentioned Ferdinand.)

I don't know if you would just look for someone who died and then used Rose.

Any modern hoax theory should start with a serious Ripper enthusiast looking for a suspect based on several factors, like a good motive, and convenient death. Depending on your theory, it's not inconceivable that you would find Maybrick. I know I almost did back in the 80s, so it's possible.

Hi MayBea,

Franz Ferdinand was Franz Josef's nephew. The tragic cause of World War I actually was disliked by the Emperor, as Franz Ferdinand was somewhat a social reformer - his wife Sophie (who dies with him at Sarajevo) was a commoner, who would be granted a title of Countess of Chotek, but was never allowed to enter a ballroom or dining room ahead of the actual Hapsburg Royal archduchesses, and whose marriage was considered legally morganatic - her children by Franz were commoners and could not inherit the throne. Franz Ferdinand, had he lived, would have worked to make the "Dual Monarchy" of the Austrian Empire and the Kingdom of Hungary a "Tri-Monarchy", by including a Slavik throne in Bohemia (something the Serbs were afraid of, which was why he was targeted). Oddly enough, although his assassination is the pretext for the decision to smash troublesome Serbia, the Hapsburg Court was relieved that Ferdinand was now out of the way.

Eventually, in 1916, when Franz Josef died, his grandnephew Karl becomes the last Hapsburg Emperor.

Actually, Maybrick (if one had to choose a candidate for a Diary hoax) was better than others as he certainly was known due to the notoriety and questions of Florence's trial and guilt. But I looked at the noted cases of 1889, and immediately after Maybrick (in the "Notable British Trial" Series of trial transcriptions) is "The Trial of John Watson Laurie (the "Arran Murder")". It was not too difficult for me to find a potential substitute on an academic question.

If we were to geographically broaden our search, I could have suggested Micheal Eyraud, the Frenchman who with his mistress partner Gabrielle Bompard, strangled the wealthy bailiff Gouffe in Paris and dumped his body in a Saratoga trunk in the countryside. Eyraud and Bompard's escape and recapture were front page news in 1889-90, as was the trial in Paris in 1890, which dealt with hypnotism and sexual enslavement.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Possibly, MayBea, but I think it was more likely a reference to vitriol throwing as a recognised form of assault. While acid throwing attacks were relatively rare, they were more common, and more widely known about, in late 19th century Britain than they would be by the late 20th century.

Love,

Caz
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Examples from the literature of the time. Conan Doyle will use a vitriol attack on the handsome villain in his story 'The Adventure of the Illustrious Client" (published in 1921, but written in 1902). Stevenson ends one of his short South Sea novels, "The Ebb - Tide" (in a chapter entitled "David and Goliath" to give an idea of the similarity of vitriol throwing with using a slingshot) with one in the 1880s.

Jeff

[caz]

Was the author/killer inspired by the Lipski story? Angel was killed with nitric acid.

Possibly, MayBea, but I think it was more likely a reference to vitriol throwing as a recognised form of assault. While acid throwing attacks were relatively rare, they were more common, and more widely known about, in late 19th century Britain than they would be by the late 20th century.

Love,

Caz
X

[MayBea]

He(/she?) gives us a little more. Next time, he'll throw acid on them. Does that mean he threw something else on this one? Maybe some arsenic tossed in her mouth. She could suffocate from the powder alone if it gets in the lungs.

Was the author/killer inspired by the Lipski story? Angel was killed with nitric acid.

Arsenic would leave red irritation on the tongue. No neck bruising need be evident with the 'squeezing', and arsenic poisoning would leave a contorted facial expression of pain as would strangulation.

[MayBea]

It's surprising the Mayerling Incident should be the first thing on the 1889 England Murder search. It took place outside Vienna.

(At least, now I know Franz Ferdinand wasn't Franz Josef's son. That explains why my mother always said we were servants of Franz Josef but never mentioned Ferdinand.)

I don't know if you would just look for someone who died and then used Rose.

Any modern hoax theory should start with a serious Ripper enthusiast looking for a suspect based on several factors, like a good motive, and convenient death. Depending on your theory, it's not inconceivable that you would find Maybrick. I know I almost did back in the 80s, so it's possible.

[Mayerling]

That's funny - when you search 1889 England Murder, the first thing that comes up is the Mayerling Incident!

Hi MayBea,

It's surprising the Mayerling Incident should be the first thing on the 1889 England Murder search. It took place outside Vienna.

No, if I was to consider a possible 1889 murder victim as a potential "Diary" based Ripper Suspect, it would be a Mr. Edward Rose. This unfortunate gentleman went on a vacation to Scotland in the early Summer of 1889, and while on the isle of Arran he was either pushed by a temporary companion he had met (or picked up, depending on your interpretation of the situation) named John Watson Laurie, or he fell, off a precipitous height and was killed. Laurie certainly robbed him, and hid from sight (badly) for two weeks, but was tracked down and returned to Scotland for a murder trial. Found guilty, his death sentence was reduced to life imprisonment (that evidence of actual killing was not totally proved). He died still in custody in 1930.

There is no particular reason for me to single out Edward Rose, but he did like to travel (at least for nice ... if ultimately fatal vacations). He may have been the type to pick up men (though this is just debatable). Maybe he hated prostitutes or women? Anyway, he seemed just as worthy of consideration as James Maybrick.

Jeff

[MayBea]

That's funny - when you search 1889 England Murder, the first thing that comes up is the Mayerling Incident!

He evidently wants to steer clear of Liverpool.
He says: 'The whore is now with her maker...' 'There was no pleasure as I squeezed, I felt nothing.'
And that's all we get, which leaves open the possibility of him picking up a prostitute in a seedy part of Manchester and merely throttling her into unconsciousness.

He(/she?) gives us a little more. Next time, he'll throw acid on them. Does that mean he threw something else on this one? Maybe some arsenic tossed in her mouth. She could suffocate from the powder alone if it gets in the lungs.

As well as steering clear of Liverpool, did he also want to steer clear of his brother Thomas in Manchester South (Didsbury and Withington) and go west to Farnsworth?

"Cold and wet" and the the apparent lack of a newspaper report always indicated to me an indoor murder that might have looked like a natural death or was covered up by a landlord who disposed of the body.

[Mayerling]

Ah, but we know the real "Sir James" was taking arsenic in his various 'medicines' (and found a rich new source in early 1889) and also whacked his wife in front of a witness later that year. By the time he died, almost all the arsenic in his system had left it, most likely killing him in the process. A dose from Florie would need to have been a fairly hefty one to prove fatal, yet nothing of the kind showed up. The powers that be finally decided she had tried to kill him but the proof of her success was lacking.

In any case, if she had wanted to leave him for another man she knew she could have got a divorce on the grounds of being knocked about (cruelty) so she had no need to resort to murder.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

Sorry I did not respond earlier. I was watching the ruckus on the "Tumblety threads".

It depends on how much arsenic "Sir Jim" dosed with himself with. As you know one can actually build up a tolerance for the poison. The issue of whether he overdosed himself, or if Florence gave him too much (accidentally or intentionally), or if someone else did remains in the air.

It's an interesting case on it's own merits. I have read and reread the old Trevor Christie book on Florence (of which I still have a copy). If any murder victim (or supposed murder victim) of that period had to be the subject of the issue of a "diary" by the Ripper, Maybrick would lead the list (I have an alternative 1889 "victim" but why bring up that party?).

Jeff

[MayBea]

Back to the mysterious death of Betsy Dyson, Bolton, Greater Manchester, February, 1888. Here is the baptism of her son, William, from the Lancashire Parish Clerks Project online:

Baptism: 17 Apr 1886 St Matthew, Little Lever, Lancashire, England
William Dyson - Son of James Dyson & Betsy
Abode: Little Lever
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: James Slade
Register: Baptisms 1884 - 1891, Page 32, Entry 255
Source: LDS Film 2355941

[MayBea]

Here's map of the murder of Rose Mylett overlayed onto the map of the Ripper murders.

[MayBea]

I don't think even Feldman would cop out and say the Manchester Murder went unreported.

There's really no reason for a hoax theorists to say that unless they're trying to be fair to diary supporters or fellow researchers on both sides.

My original point was that the 'missing' Manchester Murder argument was not a proven one. Research was required by the people who used that argument - research on what the Diary is really saying, for one.

1. "The whore is now with her maker, he welcome to her."
2. "I could not cut like my last, visions of her flooded back as I struck. I tried to quash all thoughts of love."

There's a lot suggested in these entries. God can have her means to me that he had her, or she was his. Who better than a woman who married in 1884 when she was 23 and lived in the land of cotton mills?

He tried to quash all thoughts of love. You say visions of Mary, his last, came into his head. Is he saying he was in love with her?

[caz]

What do you think of Betsy Dyson as the first (and only?) Manchester Murder? (Post #1)

There had to be a reason the doctor on the scene suspected arsenic poisoning - perhaps some being placed there, on or beside the body, to cover up a strangulation.

Hi MayBea,

I very much doubt the diary author would have used a case like this. Subtle is good, but this would be pointlessly subtle to my mind.

The diary is supposed to be personal to "Sir Jim", and not written for others to read - at least not until right near the end, so we should not expect an explanation for every plan he writes about and for those plans which don't materialise, or come off in a different way. He knows what happened, so he certainly wouldn't need to commit all the salient details to paper. In fact it would be odd if he did so and seen as more evidence of a hoax.

'Tomorrow I travel to Manchester' (presumably on business), and he wonders if he could down a whore while there - a kind of practice run before starting his campaign proper in London. He evidently wants to steer clear of Liverpool, and on his return from Manchester he recalls his first encounter before complaining that 'Manchester was cold and damp very much like this hell hole'.

He says: 'The whore is now with her maker...' 'There was no pleasure as I squeezed, I felt nothing.'

And that's all we get, which leaves open the possibility of him picking up a prostitute in a seedy part of Manchester and merely throttling her into unconsciousness. There is no mention of a knife, so he could have walked away disappointed and wrongly assumed she was dead. If a prostitute survived such an attack by a punter, she wouldn't necessarily report it, and even if she did it might never reach the papers or a police file. There would be very little chance of tracking down a violent customer who was not local, but from a different city.

Love,

Caz
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