New Ideas and New Research on the Diary

[caz]

Hi Roger,

So he now supports two ‘solutions’ to the case. I’ve heard of hedging your bets but this is pushing it. After the Saddleworth Moor escapade I’m surprised that anyone will give Edwards the time of day. Then again…money talks.

Do you actually know what a literary agent does, Herlock?

They try to find publishers for the clients on their books.

They don't need to 'support' what every client writes, as long as they think a publisher will take it on.

[caz]

Hi Herlock,

speaking of Robert Smith, I heard that he is acting as Russell Edwards' literary agent--Edwards who has been all over the press recently, pushing the Eddowes' shawl scam and now the bogus 'Tilly' letter.

Those who preach the philosophy of 'caveat emptor' should seek employment with Elon Musk and D.O.G.E. This is the unelected and probably illegal department that recently defunded the Consumer Protection Agency under the principle that the unwitting public does not deserve to be protected from scammers.

So, in the same spirit, let the Ripper scams continue. Long live the scammers!

And don't worry if they are discrediting a field you're interested in. It doesn't matter. Nihilism walks hand in hand with the same philosophy. Nothing matters, least of all the truth.

Cheers.

I'll leave Palmer to his own problems in these strange times.

I'm all for protecting the vulnerable from scammers everywhere. But there's a line to be drawn when people who should know better - and claim to know better - fork out their cash for books, never for one moment being beguiled by the promises on the cover [True Face/Final Chapter/Case Closed/you name it], and then try to complain that they've been swindled. Who's scamming who?

[caz]

Thanks for the answer, Caz, but Orsam posted on his website in 2020 an extract from a letter written to Mike by Anne dated 1 February 1995 in which she tells him that the decree absolute "will be through in a few weeks time and we will be divorced".

Out of interest, Herlock, did you think to ask Orsam if the whole letter to Mike from Anne was in his possession, or did he only have the 'extract' he posted, and which you have transcribed above?

I presume Anne must not have written anything along the lines of:

'Oh, and about that affidavit you posted through my door last month, Michael. Please don't do anything stupid with it or we will both be prosecuted. Writing that diary for you was the biggest mistake I ever made.'

Nor indeed along the lines of:

'What the hell were you playing at, Michael, telling all those stupid lies? One lie after another, from Devereux to this. I protected you from yourself at the beginning, knowing you only seen the diary the day you called Doreen.'

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Thanks for the correction, Caz.

So does that mean the “man from Liverpool” Provenance came from Murphy, who supposedly heard it from Stewart who supposedly recalled, out of all the whole stock of watches he handed over to Murphy upon retirement, that that watch came from some unknown Liverpudlian. And Murphy “recalled” that too? Do we have a third and imaginary Verity to go along with the Johnson and the Dundas Verities?

This would appear, to me, to mean that Suzanne’s father played no real or actual part in the cover-up. He already had dementia, I assume. Is he then the Watch version of Devereau?

I see only the two watches in this saga: the one Albert bought from the Murphys; and the one Dundas described.

I've long wondered how it was determined that the watch old man Stewart allegedly bought from some chap who came in off the street was the same watch that was eventually sold to Albert in July 1992. No previous history, no paperwork - only the description to go on, and Dundas the Dunderhead even managed to screw that one up when trying to remember which watch was which.

I don't believe old man Stewart had anything to hide - or anything to say - and yes, I have made the observation before that he appears to have been the Devereux in this Merseyside Tale.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Thanks for the answer, Caz, but Orsam posted on his website in 2020 an extract from a letter written to Mike by Anne dated 1 February 1995 in which she tells him that the decree absolute "will be through in a few weeks time and we will be divorced". You can find it on the Wayback archive if you're interested in seeing it. So you might want to amend your chronological timeline of events.

I'm surprised you ask me whether Mike actually claimed that his motive for confessing was because he never owned up to his years of paid journalism. You always tell us not to believe anything Mike said, so what would it matter if he claimed this or not? But I don't know if he was ever asked or if he explained why he had confessed at all. Didn't he say something about feeling under pressure? That would be consistent with the theory. Although I don't suppose you'd believe him if he did say that. But, no, that theory is one that has been put forward elsewhere which I read and I mentioned it to you to see what you thought about it. I'm surprised that you don't think it of significance. After all, Shirley had set out Barrett's life history in the book they had supposedly written together and there was not a word about his journalistic career in it, was there? You may not think it of importance today but I can't help feeling it would have been extremely important information back in 1994. A bombshell in fact. Wouldn't Shirley, Doreen, Smith, Feldman, Skinner and others asked him why he'd never mentioned it to them? After all, you would assume that he'd been pretty much eliminated as a suspect for having written the diary because he was a humble virtually illiterate scrap metal dealer. Isn't that right? Wouldn't news of his apparent writing ability have come as a massive shock to everyone at the time? Wasn't Barrett threatening to sue Nick Warren for libel if he published the article which contained this information?

Can you tell me what the evidence is that he told Scotland Yard of his journalistic career in October 1993? Where can I read a copy of this statement?

I'm not planning on writing to Robert Smith, and I guess your answer (or non answer) about Voller means that he wasn't able to positively determine there was any glue over any diary ink. The whole area of investigation is pointless anyway. The diary wasn't 90 years old in 1995. That's impossible due to the appearance of "one off instance" in the text.

Anne dated their divorce to 7th December 1994 in a recorded interview in April 1995, so presumably she was referring to the decree nisi.

As for everything else, you seem to have made up your own mind, and are again answering your own questions with guesses or statements, so we'll just have to agree to disagree about the significance of what Mike said or neglected to say, and to whom, about his previous attempts to make it as a writer not a fighter.

Obviously I am not at liberty to post every detail about everything in Keith Skinner's possession as a result of his own research, and can only post what has already been posted at least once before - if not done to death - which would all have been with Keith's blessing. But that leaves you free to believe whatever you like about what else Mike told Scotland Yard on record. I was just making you aware, if you were not already, that the police were well aware of it back in October 1993.

The old book the diary is written in was easily 90 years old - give or take - in 1995, so the age and nature of the glue/kidney/linseed oil/whatever-you-want-the-staining-to-be-from, have yet to be determined. I understand now why you would not be interested in tests that could resolve this, because you already 'know' there cannot possibly be any relevant 'one off' examples in existence anywhere, waiting to join all Gary Barnett's old 'bumbling' references, which have literally only become available online over the last few days. That was quite a coincidence for me, because I had been away from the forums for a few weeks and only just popped back in the other day, with no clue that something old, but brand new and definitely real, was in the process of emerging to greet me on my return. You couldn't make it up, but luckily we don't need to. This story continues to write itself.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I can only conclude then Caz that I'm right in thinking that there is no scientific evidence which tells us that sugar was not added to the ink.?

Was that a question or a statement? You put a full stop then added a question mark as if it was an afterthought.

I'll take it as a statement, and leave you to answer your own questions.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

There's no need for me to do that, Caz. I already answered the question myself in the post which started this whole discussion. By way of reminder, I said:

"But in all these years neither he nor anyone else has taken that step. Why? Because they know what the answer would be. FAKE."

And still you post on the subject and ask your questions, when I could have left you to answer them yourself?

Good to know that, because it will save me time answering any more of them.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Caz,

Apologies for intervening in a discussion you are having with Lombro but it's so rare to see what Mike said in 1999 even being mentioned that I wanted to ask you a question about it.

Is it fair to say that there is a very big difference between (a) Barrett, as the forger, adding sugar to the ink and (b) Barrett's understanding of what adding sugar might do to the ink?

Do you not think that (b) is somewhat irrelevant? As to (a) is there any scientific evidence which tells us that sugar was not added to the ink?

Isn't it also the case that Barrett said in 1999 that he forged the diary with his ex-wife who, he said wrote the manuscript, and that he also said this in November 1994? I only mention it because it's not in your chronology of events

Reading this post again, I'm still struggling with the point of your questions, Herlock, and how I am meant to answer them.

I have absolutely no clue where Mike got the idea about adding sugar to the diary ink, or why the first time he made that claim on record was in 1999. But would his understanding not have been entirely relevant if he had actually done so?

Would you, as a wannabe forger with no knowledge or previous experience, add anything to your selected ink and then use it, without any understanding of why you are adding it or what it might do? Why sugar? Why not salt, or baking powder, or flour?

What did you mean by the claims against Anne in particular not being in my 'chronology of events'? I was just highlighting a few of the more outlandish claims Mike made on various different occasions, whether they flatly contradicted a previous claim, or were introduced out of left field, or evolved along the way, or repeated in one form or another.

If you don't find the sugar claim outlandish or even surprising, that's up to you. But I'm not sure the audience at the 'Smoke & Stagger' were ready for that one.

Love,

Caz
X

[Scott Nelson]

You'd need some evidence that Eddie Lyons had any 'colleagues', or indeed knew anyone who had worked at that address previously. We know he was only taken on by Portus & Rhodes in late November 1991, along with Jim Bowling, for a lengthy contract in a different area.

This would have been a major reason for Feldman dismissing his Battlecrease contacts as liars, because he believed Tony Devereux had to be somewhere in the chain, but he was dead by August 1991. Feldman never knew about the double event of 9th March 1992, or he may not have been so hasty.

Thank you Caroline. Just a couple of questions. Couldn't Eddie Lyons have heard about early work at the house after late November 1991? Couldn't Devereux have given the diary to Mike before August 1991?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

speaking of Robert Smith, I heard that he is acting as Russell Edwards' literary agent--Edwards who has been all over the press recently, pushing the Eddowes' shawl scam and now the bogus 'Tilly' letter.

Those who preach the philosophy of 'caveat emptor' should seek employment with Elon Musk and D.O.G.E. This is the unelected and probably illegal department that recently defunded the Consumer Protection Agency under the principle that the unwitting public does not deserve to be protected from scammers.

So, in the same spirit, let the Ripper scams continue. Long live the scammers!

And don't worry if they are discrediting a field you're interested in. It doesn't matter. Nihilism walks hand in hand with the same philosophy. Nothing matters, least of all the truth.

Cheers.

Hi Roger,

So he now supports two ‘solutions’ to the case. I’ve heard of hedging your bets but this is pushing it. After the Saddleworth Moor escapade I’m surprised that anyone will give Edwards the time of day. Then again…money talks.

[rjpalmer]

Yes, I've heard of the expression caveat emptor, Caz, usually in the context of scam merchants and dodgy sellers of goods.

Hi Herlock,

speaking of Robert Smith, I heard that he is acting as Russell Edwards' literary agent--Edwards who has been all over the press recently, pushing the Eddowes' shawl scam and now the bogus 'Tilly' letter.

Those who preach the philosophy of 'caveat emptor' should seek employment with Elon Musk and D.O.G.E. This is the unelected and probably illegal department that recently defunded the Consumer Protection Agency under the principle that the unwitting public does not deserve to be protected from scammers.

So, in the same spirit, let the Ripper scams continue. Long live the scammers!

And don't worry if they are discrediting a field you're interested in. It doesn't matter. Nihilism walks hand in hand with the same philosophy. Nothing matters, least of all the truth.

Cheers.

[Lombro2]

I think you meant the watch repairer, Tim Dundas, who claimed there were no scratches in a watch that had nothing in common with Albert's.

Suzanne's father could not tell anyone about anything by the time this became an issue, because he was suffering from dementia and couldn't be questioned.

He presumably told his daughter and son-in-law everything he knew about the history of the watch when still of sound mind, but they just never thought to pass on any of the details to their customer, which they remembered clearly enough when Albert returned a year later to ask.

Love,

Caz
X

Thanks for the correction, Caz.

So does that mean the “man from Liverpool” Provenance came from Murphy, who supposedly heard it from Stewart who supposedly recalled, out of all the whole stock of watches he handed over to Murphy upon retirement, that that watch came from some unknown Liverpudlian. And Murphy “recalled” that too? Do we have a third and imaginary Verity to go along with the Johnson and the Dundas Verities?

This would appear, to me, to mean that Suzanne’s father played no real or actual part in the cover-up. He already had dementia, I assume. Is he then the Watch version of Devereau?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have no time left now, but from memory the divorce came through on 7th December 1994.

Mike could have hoped to sell his story to the newspapers whether it was a pack of lies or had any truth in it at all. But the evidence would suggest he used the affidavit as a bargaining tool to get Anne to speak to him - which would not have worked if he had instead sold the story to the highest bidder.

I have a lot to catch up with on this and some of the other threads, so you will have to be patient.

I don't recall Mike ever claiming that his motive for 'confessing' in June 1994 was because 'he had no idea how he was going to explain to Shirley and all the others' why he'd never told them about his brief encounter with journalism. May I ask who suggested this to you, assuming it wasn't your own speculation? The cause and effect seems all over the place. Why go to the extreme of a public confession to forgery, just because he hadn't previously confessed in private to this rather underwhelming episode of his life? Besides, he had already told Scotland Yard about his creative writing ambitions and achievements back in October 1993, and they had taken no further action, so what was the big deal in June 1994?

As for Alec Voller's visual observations, the best thing to suggest when you write to Robert Smith is to ask whether he has any plans to have the stains tested forensically.

Love,

Caz
X

Thanks for the answer, Caz, but Orsam posted on his website in 2020 an extract from a letter written to Mike by Anne dated 1 February 1995 in which she tells him that the decree absolute "will be through in a few weeks time and we will be divorced". You can find it on the Wayback archive if you're interested in seeing it. So you might want to amend your chronological timeline of events.

I'm surprised you ask me whether Mike actually claimed that his motive for confessing was because he never owned up to his years of paid journalism. You always tell us not to believe anything Mike said, so what would it matter if he claimed this or not? But I don't know if he was ever asked or if he explained why he had confessed at all. Didn't he say something about feeling under pressure? That would be consistent with the theory. Although I don't suppose you'd believe him if he did say that. But, no, that theory is one that has been put forward elsewhere which I read and I mentioned it to you to see what you thought about it. I'm surprised that you don't think it of significance. After all, Shirley had set out Barrett's life history in the book they had supposedly written together and there was not a word about his journalistic career in it, was there? You may not think it of importance today but I can't help feeling it would have been extremely important information back in 1994. A bombshell in fact. Wouldn't Shirley, Doreen, Smith, Feldman, Skinner and others asked him why he'd never mentioned it to them? After all, you would assume that he'd been pretty much eliminated as a suspect for having written the diary because he was a humble virtually illiterate scrap metal dealer. Isn't that right? Wouldn't news of his apparent writing ability have come as a massive shock to everyone at the time? Wasn't Barrett threatening to sue Nick Warren for libel if he published the article which contained this information?

Can you tell me what the evidence is that he told Scotland Yard of his journalistic career in October 1993? Where can I read a copy of this statement?

I'm not planning on writing to Robert Smith, and I guess your answer (or non answer) about Voller means that he wasn't able to positively determine there was any glue over any diary ink. The whole area of investigation is pointless anyway. The diary wasn't 90 years old in 1995. That's impossible due to the appearance of "one off instance" in the text.

[Herlock Sholmes]

My 'chronology of events' must stretch by now to many hundreds of pages, Herlock. Forgive me for not giving you chapter and verse on everything Mike Barrett ever tried to claim about the diary. If I lived that long, the readers would lose the will to do so.

Love,

Caz
X

I can only conclude then Caz that I'm right in thinking that there is no scientific evidence which tells us that sugar was not added to the ink.?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why not ask Robert yourself?

There's no need for me to do that, Caz. I already answered the question myself in the post which started this whole discussion. By way of reminder, I said:

"But in all these years neither he nor anyone else has taken that step. Why? Because they know what the answer would be. FAKE."