Vote the Diary

[pinkmoon]

Hi PM,

I hear what you say, but if as you suggest Mike Barrett pinched the bloody Diary, then who did he pinch it from? The fact that the name of Tony Devereux features in this odd story is, to me at any rate, rather suggestive of some kind of "across a pub table" deal.

It's obvious that (1) he obtained it from somebody and (2) that he never wrote it himself.

Any ideas?

Graham

Hi Graham,I think he pinched it from one of the workmen who drank in the pub the story concerning Tony was used when Tony died so Mr Barrett could then claim ownership of the diary and profit from it this is just my opinion I have no proof of this.

[MayBea]

As to the possibility of Mike's mother giving him the Diary, how could this be? And why? What had his mother to do with the Graham family, Battlecrease House, etc., etc?

Sorry, Graham, I meant that as an "only a mother" jab.

But even pinkmoon is suggesting that none of the guys at the pub would have given Mike the journal; he had to have "pinched" it.

In which case, if he didn't steal it, we're back to his wife having it and giving it to him, and pulling the strings.

[caz]

My understanding of the Old Hoax Theory now is that the workmen gave Barrett the Diary just to get rid of it.

Is that correct or are you reserving your position on motivation until the record is set straight on provenance?

In the meantime, from the pictures you've painted, the only conceivable persons who would have given Michael B the Diary are his mother or his wife....

Hi MayBea,

I see the old hoax theory (or any other theory for that matter) as a separate issue from the Battlecrease evidence.

I hope the record can one day be set straight as far as how it came from the house and when. But the motivation for writing it in the first place is highly unlikely ever to be resolved, unless its author can be identified via the handwriting, which might then shed light on why it was done.

I don't understand what pictures I've painted which would have given you your 'only conceivable persons'.

Love,

Caz
X

[MayBea]

I see the old hoax theory (or any other theory for that matter) as a separate issue from the Battlecrease evidence.

Are you admitting that old hoax theory can have, or include, a Graham provenance?

Old Hoax theories range in dates from 1889 to 1970. How likely is a post-1889 forgery likely to have been planted, and/or ended up hidden, in the house?

[caz]

Are you admitting that old hoax theory can have, or include, a Graham provenance?

No, MayBea. I don't think I did that, did I?

Old Hoax theories range in dates from 1889 to 1970. How likely is a post-1889 forgery likely to have been planted, and/or ended up hidden, in the house?

You are mixing up theories with evidence again.

It doesn't matter how likely it is, if the evidence indicates that it came out of that house but does not match James Maybrick's handwriting.

It is what it is.

Love,

Caz
X

[RivkahChaya]

If the hoax was intended to frame Maybrick, I'd say the odds of it being planted in his house are pretty good.

In fact, unless the hoax (just play with me for a moment) only accidentally came to be associated with Maybrick, or was supposed to be a work of acknowledged fiction, is it suprising that it made its way to the house. Someone who went to all the trouble to create it with the express purpose of framing Maybrick is pretty likely, if you ask me, to try to create a false provenance as well.

But, regarding stats and "odds," the odds of anything that did, in fact, happen, are 100%. It is no good specifying an event after it has happened, and then claiming it was unlikely and trying to use that to bolster an argument. The diary, after all, had to end up somewhere. It's like firing a bullet at the side a barn, drawing a target around it, and saying "Wow, what are the odds it would hit right there?"

[MayBea]

Weak provenance was a weak argument from the beginning. It's easy to fake, hard to prove, and it proves nothing one way or the other.

Besides, any provenance in the art world without original documentation would be considered weak.

So why wait for something that's not likely to come? That's what hoax theorists are doing.

But I don't see how Anne Graham or Mr. Skinner or anyone else could find documentation to prove a specific provenance. So here's your likeliest provenance scenario(s), weird, strange, unlikely or not, take it and move from there.

[RivkahChaya]

Are you talking about the "old hoax" theorists? As a new hoax proponent ("theorist" is too strong a word), I can tell you I'm not waiting for anything.

[MayBea]

Yes, I'm speaking of old hoax theorists. The waiters seem to be in their group.

Caz doesn't see provenance evidice related to authenticity and I don't either? Even if a Battlecrease origin, by way of the workmen, could be proven, there's probably no way to prove how long it was in the woodwork, or even if it was really there.

This is turning, a bit, into a D B Cooper's Found Money Debate.

[pinkmoon]

Yes, I'm speaking of old hoax theorists. The waiters seem to be in their group.

Caz doesn't see provenance evidice related to authenticity and I don't either? Even if a Battlecrease origin, by way of the workmen, could be proven, there's probably no way to prove how long it was in the woodwork, or even if it was really there.

This is turning, a bit, into a D B Cooper's Found Money Debate.

This diary business will never be solved unless we use one simple test its not a very earth shattering idea but it would solve the mystery .

[MayBea]

This diary business will never be solved unless we use one simple test its not a very earth shattering idea but it would solve the mystery .

What is it, pinkmoon? A lie-detector test?

[pinkmoon]

What is it, pinkmoon? A lie-detector test?

No a lot more simple than that bit more time consuming though.

[MayBea]

For me, the one and only test is, and has been, Time.

As the Maybrick motto says, Tempus Omnia Revelat.

[GUT]

G'day MayBea

How is time alone going to help, without more information those who believe will always believe those think it a hoax will continue to think it a hoax.

[Sunbury]

No a lot more simple than that bit more time consuming though.

I will bite, what exact test Pinkmoon? I'm genuinely curious.
For the record I consider it a hoax.