new info on the diary

[GUT]

G'Day Amanda

I'm inclined to agree that that's where the answer [if that is there is one] lies.

G.U.T.

[Amanda Sumner]

G'Day Amanda



I'm not an expert either, but I have worked with some of the best document examiners in the world. I can tell you that all they need is one proven example and the questioned document and they can say either

Likely
Unlikely or
Inconclusive

On them being written by the same person.

It also appears highly unlikely that the will is other than genuine, given the witnesses.

GUT

Hello Gut,
Only one? That's really interesting. I know that I read somewhere that it is virtually impossible to disguise one's handwriting.
I'm sure that the experts have not found a link between the two documents, so in their opinion Maybrick did not write the diary. At least, as far as I know. Maybe more tests have been done on it since.
Certainly there seems no valid reason why Maybrick should have felt the need to change the style of his writing.
What is interesting though is the amount of detail in the diary.
Someone did a lot of research, but why Maybrick?
It is interesting that there is an alleged connection between Mrs Maybrick and Ms Graham. Maybe that is where the mystery lies. Ms graham has said that her father passed it down to her and he got it from his step mother(?)
Supposing there was a bastard child and the plan was, initially, to make money from the family when Mr Maybrick died. Only legitimate children could inherit... I'm possibly going off into flights of fantasy now, but the answer does lie, as I've said before, among those that brought the diary into the limelight. In my opinion.

[GUT]

G'Day Maybea

Yes one sample that is known to belong to someone and then they can say the likelihood of another being written by the same person.

I believe the standard Victorian script taught in schools would be the one that hides one's personality, not the Normal Script.

Personality is another issue all together and falls into graphology [or perhaps even hocus pocus IMHO]

Handwriting analysis is about WHO wrote something, not personality and relies on letter formations, lifts, pressure and the like.

Document examiners really don't like to work off photocopies, they want the real thing.

I sat through a 2 hour presentation by a man regarded by many as the best in world recently and honestly as far as I was concerned he could have gone on all day, it was fascinating the things they look at. Blowing up single letters 1000X and comparing them.

GUT

[MayBea]

I have worked with some of the best document examiners in the world. I can tell you that all they need is one proven example and the questioned document and they can say either

Likely
Unlikely or
Inconclusive

By "one proven example", do you mean one example of the handwriting? I was thinking three individual letters was enough for me, not that it matters either way.

I believe the standard Victorian script taught in schools would be the one that hides one's personality, not the Normal Script. That's why on the page with Kurten's handwriting, taken from the Kurten book, it says Kurten's Normal Handwriting above the two natural and strange scripts.

[pinkmoon]

One thing that always struck me about the diary was why the author claimed ownership of the infamous letters sent to the police it would have been a lot safer for the forger to not include these in the diary.

[GUT]

G'Day Amanda

As far as how many matches one needs to conclude that two samples of handwriting have been done by the same person, I have no idea. I am not a handwriting expert. Three does not sound very many.

I'm not an expert either, but I have worked with some of the best document examiners in the world. I can tell you that all they need is one proven example and the questioned document and they can say either

Likely
Unlikely or
Inconclusive

On them being written by the same person.

It also appears highly unlikely that the will is other than genuine, given the witnesses.

GUT

[Amanda Sumner]

Amanda, how many matching idiosyncrasies would you need to conclude a handwriting match? I remember finding three possible ones using the Will and the samples of the Diary online

Hello MayBea,
The point I'm making is that there was no reason for Maybrick to change his handwriting while writing a diary, unless he disguised it to hide the fact that it was him, but that seems to me a pointless exercise when he gave that away throughout his book and wanted it found.
He either wrote the diary or he didn't.
He either wrote the will or he didn't.

There would be no point trying to find a handwriting match unless one accepts he wrote one of them.
If he he wrote the diary then the will is forged and must have involved family members and two independent witness's, his friends. I personally feel that this is unlikely.
If he wrote the will, he did not write the diary in my opinion. There was no need for him to change his handwriting.

I think we can all debunk the MPD theory.

As far as how many matches one needs to conclude that two samples of handwriting have been done by the same person, I have no idea. I am not a handwriting expert. Three does not sound very many.

It really does not matter a jot what I think, however, I do find the subject very intriguing. It would be wonderful for the truth to come out one day but, until then, it will remain a source for much speculation.

[MayBea]

It is not unfeasible to suggest that he did, considering his drug abuse, but even if that caused him to change his writing there would have been certain clues in the way he wrote certain letters. It's almost impossible to disguise one's writing completely apparently, or at least that is what I have read.

Amanda, how many matching idiosyncrasies would you need to conclude a handwriting match? I remember finding three possible ones using the Will and the samples of the Diary online...

Tempus Omni Revelat found numerous letter-formation matches between the Diary and the Ripper letters, but still skeptics are unconvinced. You can find his thread in this section.

[Amanda Sumner]

Oh, it exists alright. I've been reading about it. No one could have failed to recognise it. However they no longer call it that but it's now under the umbrella of 'Dissociative Identity Disorder'.
People can change their writing considerably, with DID or not, but there would have been no reason to in M's case if he wrote it as a confession and wanted it found.
I think the pocket watch appearing so soon after the diary was to boost the authenticity of it and somehow the two of them are linked.
It seems strange that one should appear so soon after the other and analysis of the watch appears to be that the etches were done many decades ago which suggests to me that the diary was done at the same time.
But this is only supposition on my part.

The whole subject is certainly intriguing....

[GUT]

G'Day Amanda

I think we're both singing the same words to different tunes. There is next to no chance that he had MPD IF such a thing exists and modern Psychiatry is all but unanimous that it doesn't.

GUT

[Amanda Sumner]

Hello Gut,
The point I'm making is that the handwriting is crucial to establish who wrote the diary. Here we have a document of a will, witnessed to have been written by Maybrick himself by two friends of his, no less, but experts say it does not match the writing in the diary. Even without the expert's opinion why would the Ripper change his style of handwriting just to put entries in a diary? The pro-group say it maybe because he might have had MPD, in which case, while he was the Ripper, his style of writing changed. It rather stretches the imagination, in my opinion, and a much more plausible explanation is that he did not write the will. The problem with that is that it was witnessed by two of his friends so any suggestion of the will being dodgy has to have us believe that the family fraudulently wrote a will in his name and these two friends were in on it too. The subject of the will must have been mentioned in the trial.
Maybrick did not have MPD. There is nothing documented to say that he ever had it. He did have violent outbursts and his health, it was noted, suffered because of his drug abuse of arsenic and strychnine.
So why the change in handwriting?
Maybrick did not write it.

The truth is with those that brought the diary into the public domain with it's air of mystery and lies.

The only questions left are who wrote it? And when? IMO.

[GUT]

G'Day Amanda

Drug abuse seems to be a symptom of Multiple Personality Disorder rather than the cause of it.
Anyone living with someone with it could not fail to know. It affects their daily lives and without treatment could spiral out of control.
Therefore I feel that it's extremely unlikely that Maybrick had the disorder and this has only been suggested in recent times, in my opinion, to explain the reasons behind the different handwriting in the diary and his, apparently, uncontrollable urges he must have had during his murderous spree.

If he had MPD or was Psychotic it was absolute negligence, indeed Professional Misconduct (which in 1888, or today could see a Barrister Struck Off) not to raise it at Mrs M's trial for murder. Which to me says he didn't have MPD [if it exists] and wasn't psychotic.

Doesn't mean he COULDN'T have been Jacky, just makes it less likely in my opinion.


GUT

[GUT]

G'Day KAZ

Humans can be born with a MPD or psychopathic, it doesn't have to be bought on through drug misuse.

My point exactly, his arsenic use did not contribute to ANY MPD he may or may not have had.

GUT

[Kaz]

Hi kaz,I do think the diary was written with a view to obtain money when dear old flo was hung but when that didn't happen it was never launched onto the general public.

No, doesn't seem plausible to me, it seems far more plausible that James Maybrick was Jack the ripper and wrote down his thoughts in something to hand and then hid it somewhere in battlecrease.

[Amanda Sumner]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/dissociative_disorders/hic_dissociative_identity_disorder_multiple_personality_disorder.aspx