Upon reading the Diary again...

[miakaal4]

Add to that the distressed statement that Florence had asked to accompany him to London when he wanted to begin his campaign. He bemoans; "...all my hard work and plans will be destroyed..." by the "Whore".
The irony is almost laughable.
But regarding the hard work and plans, could this be his reaearch in Whitechapel? Studying patterns of local behaviour, quieter areas, police patrols, means of a quick escape, how the people dressed, how to become invisable?

[Iain Wilson]

my cousin, 38, was murdered yesterday

My sincere condolences.

[RavenDarkendale]

Raven I can give you the page numbers and the lines.

Pg. 249

'An initial here and an initial there will tell of the whoring mother.'

'I left it there for the fools but they will never find. I was too clever. Left it in front for all eyes to see.'

Even without looking it up, I do recall these lines. Point taken.

No, there wouldn't. But that doesn't mean that he couldn't have been the ripper. After all, I keep on hearing that, in all probability, Jack the Ripper was some complete unknown, so if the diary had never been found, that would've made Maybrick even more of a likely suspect in the eyes of certain people, wouldn't it? The fact that the FM doesn't relate to any other suspect, should set alarm bells ringing, Raven. If it doesn't relate to any other suspect, then who does it relate to? It is in the picture. Perhaps it could be the chap who has been telling you he is JtR all along. The one who's handwriting looks like the letters of the time, the one who gives explanations for items at crime scenes that no one has given before, and the one who has so many coincidences surrounding him, that it is starting to become ridiculous when people say we should ignore this document.

You cannot ignore any possibility in a murder investigation. I have never said Maybrick couldn't be JtR. It is possible, the diary could be genuine.

Again, Raven, it all depends on the individual, what type of mental illness they have, and how badly they suffer from it. To make rash judgements like 'someone with a mental illness wouldn't be that subtle' is a little ludicrous. Trust me, I have a mental illness, and I can be more than subtle if I need to be.

We will agree to disagree here. Sorry to hear that you also suffer from a mental illness. I know it isn't easy from my own experience, God grant you peace.

Not at all. It is true that without the diary we would not have known of Maybrick, but that does not mean he could not have been the ripper. Especially when you have FMs in actual photgraphs and letters picked out by the original diary team that match his handwritting.

He could have been the Ripper. But without the diary FM means nothing.

For want of a suspect, the FM markings have no explanation.

Precisely. That is why Maybrick is such a good suspect: because he actually gives you an answer for these things. No one else can.

For want of an explanation, the FM marks have no value as evidence.
Everything thus hinges on the diary

Clear letters left by a killer at a murder scene (Maybrick or not) have no value in a murder case where you have been trying to work out the killer's identity for over a century(?)!n I'd think about that one again, Raven.

Not what I meant. Any and all marks at a crime scene could be the evidence that cracks the case. But consider this: Finger prints and DNA are proof positive. Yet many unsolved crimes have one or the other or both in the crime records. Valuable? Certainly. But until they get a match for the prints or the DNA quite worthless in the sense of soling the crime and arresting the suspect. Without the diary, there is no way to use the FM as evidence. Had the diary never been discovered to say what FM might mean, this evidence becomes like that finger print or DNA, evidence, but worthless.

Perhaps you would consider clarifying just how the chemise forms an M? As I say I cannot see it even with a big magnifying glass. Obviously, you can, as I don't feel you would say something you didn't believe to be true. That is to your credit.[/B]

Raven, The chemise forms the M along with the outer left arm and the inner left thigh. The killer brought the chemise back over the body and placed it directly at the mid point between the two, to create the middle 'V' part of the M. This is why the material is compressed. This happened not only as he was placing the chemise on top of the body, but also when he scrunched the material up into the desired shape. The M he created is actually more of an outline, Raven.

Yes I see what you are saying, the M is there. I believe it is the mind finding familiar shapes in pictures. I'll grant you have a good eye for shapes, but honestly, Tempus, I think this a bit far fetched. I agree to disagree.

This is incredibly difficult to explain to someone on a forum thread, Raven. But I will try and post a clearer explanation for you.

I think you do very well, my friend, at explaining your viewpoint. You are one of the few on this forum who at least make me THINK about my own stance on any given point. If you haven't changed my mind, you at the very least were clear and concise enough to give me reason to look at it from your point of view. Many just spew rhetoric. This has the effect of making me not take them seriously. This is not the case for you, I take you very seriously indeed.

I appreciate your condolence re my cousin. Thank you, my friend.

God Bless

Raven Darkendale

[RavenDarkendale]

My sincere condolences.

Thank you my friend. Looks like the four people arrested for his murder could have lured him to his death. It is a sad time...

[Victor]

The fact that the FM doesn't relate to any other suspect

What about Fanny Mortimer? Should she be considered Jill the Ripper?

If it doesn't relate to any other suspect, then who does it relate to? It is in the picture.

Maybe it's formed by 3 random slashes and a casually tossed chemise over the body?

The one who's handwriting looks like the letters of the time

But whose handwriting doesn't match James Maybrick's will and letters.

the one who gives explanations for items at crime scenes that no one has given before

Erm... there are numerous explanations for the Chapman coins, the Eddowes VV and various blood splatters.

Clear letters left by a killer at a murder scene

That's jumping the gun a bit - dubiously formed letters. Or letters you think are clearly formed. Try dropping 3 matchsticks, how many times does the random drop form the letter "F"? Quite a few for me (although I'm at work and used pens)

The chemise forms the M along with the outer left arm and the inner left thigh. The killer brought the chemise back over the body and placed it directly at the mid point between the two, to create the middle 'V' part of the M. This is why the material is compressed. This happened not only as he was placing the chemise on top of the body, but also when he scrunched the material up into the desired shape.

How do you know each of those things was a deliberate placement rather than being casual thrown over the cadaver?

KR,
Vic.

[Tempus omnia revelat]

Raven I can give you the page numbers and the lines.

Pg. 249

'An initial here and an initial there will tell of the whoring mother.'

'I left it there for the fools but they will never find. I was too clever. Left it in front for all eyes to see.'

Even without looking it up, I do recall these lines. Point taken.

No, there wouldn't. But that doesn't mean that he couldn't have been the ripper. After all, I keep on hearing that, in all probability, Jack the Ripper was some complete unknown, so if the diary had never been found, that would've made Maybrick even more of a likely suspect in the eyes of certain people, wouldn't it? The fact that the FM doesn't relate to any other suspect, should set alarm bells ringing, Raven. If it doesn't relate to any other suspect, then who does it relate to? It is in the picture. Perhaps it could be the chap who has been telling you he is JtR all along. The one who's handwriting looks like the letters of the time, the one who gives explanations for items at crime scenes that no one has given before, and the one who has so many coincidences surrounding him, that it is starting to become ridiculous when people say we should ignore this document.

You cannot ignore any possibility in a murder investigation. I have never said Maybrick couldn't be JtR. It is possible, the diary could be genuine.

Again, Raven, it all depends on the individual, what type of mental illness they have, and how badly they suffer from it. To make rash judgements like 'someone with a mental illness wouldn't be that subtle' is a little ludicrous. Trust me, I have a mental illness, and I can be more than subtle if I need to be.

We will agree to disagree here. Sorry to hear that you also suffer from a mental illness. I know it isn't easy from my own experience, God grant you peace.

Not at all. It is true that without the diary we would not have known of Maybrick, but that does not mean he could not have been the ripper. Especially when you have FMs in actual photgraphs and letters picked out by the original diary team that match his handwritting.

He could have been the Ripper. But without the diary FM means nothing.

For want of a suspect, the FM markings have no explanation.

Precisely. That is why Maybrick is such a good suspect: because he actually gives you an answer for these things. No one else can.

For want of an explanation, the FM marks have no value as evidence.
Everything thus hinges on the diary

Clear letters left by a killer at a murder scene (Maybrick or not) have no value in a murder case where you have been trying to work out the killer's identity for over a century(?)!n I'd think about that one again, Raven.

Not what I meant. Any and all marks at a crime scene could be the evidence that cracks the case. But consider this: Finger prints and DNA are proof positive. Yet many unsolved crimes have one or the other or both in the crime records. Valuable? Certainly. But until they get a match for the prints or the DNA quite worthless in the sense of soling the crime and arresting the suspect. Without the diary, there is no way to use the FM as evidence. Had the diary never been discovered to say what FM might mean, this evidence becomes like that finger print or DNA, evidence, but worthless.

Perhaps you would consider clarifying just how the chemise forms an M? As I say I cannot see it even with a big magnifying glass. Obviously, you can, as I don't feel you would say something you didn't believe to be true. That is to your credit.[/B]

Raven, The chemise forms the M along with the outer left arm and the inner left thigh. The killer brought the chemise back over the body and placed it directly at the mid point between the two, to create the middle 'V' part of the M. This is why the material is compressed. This happened not only as he was placing the chemise on top of the body, but also when he scrunched the material up into the desired shape. The M he created is actually more of an outline, Raven.


This is incredibly difficult to explain to someone on a forum thread, Raven. But I will try and post a clearer explanation for you.

I think you do very well, my friend, at explaining your viewpoint. You are one of the few on this forum who at least make me THINK about my own stance on any given point. If you haven't changed my mind, you at the very least were clear and concise enough to give me reason to look at it from your point of view. Many just spew rhetoric. This has the effect of making me not take them seriously. This is not the case for you, I take you very seriously indeed.

I appreciate your condolence re my cousin. Thank you, my friend.

God Bless

Raven Darkendale

Wow! the colours on our replies are getting incredible. And before you say anything, I know I started it.


Yes I see what you are saying, the M is there. I believe it is the mind finding familiar shapes in pictures. I'll grant you have a good eye for shapes, but honestly, Tempus, I think this a bit far fetched. I agree to disagree.


I think you misunderstand me, Raven. It is not me who is telling you this is an F or M (although I believe they are), it is the diarist. The diarist specifically tells you that he has left you an FM in that position, so whether you think these items make an FM is irrelevent. This is what the diarist (forger or not) is saying those items make up. I am merely showing you all what he said he has left and where he states he has left it.


If someone tells you they have left an FM and, when you look at her arm, you find the F, it is only simple logic to assume that the M lies next to it. When you then look next to the F and find a piece of chemise that is lying on top of the body - for no adequately explained reason - you have to start asking the question why is it there?

This M, Raven, is not meant to be a perfectly formed letter. He did not whip out his ruler, stencil or protractor to create it, it was simply meant to have the general shape of a letter M using the materials that he could find at the time, thus:

'but they will never find it. I was too clever.'





None of this is far fetched at all, Raven. These things are actually in the room. Some person (whether Maybrick or not) was in that room and they actually did those things. Therefore, they had a reason for doing so.

You have said yourself that you think that the F is there and that that looks like an M (even though you don't actually believe it is one), so why can they not just be what the diarist tells us - an FM? If they are not an FM, then what were they meant to be? Some unknown bloke murders MJK, carves a mark on here arm that ends up looking like an F - even though it's not meant to be. Then places a piece of her chemise on top of her body - again for some unknown reason - slap bang inbetween her left forearm and inner left thigh, so the whole thing ends up looking like an M. If it's not Maybrick then we have to give explanations for all these things.

Kind regards


Tempus

[Carol]

Thank you my friend. Looks like the four people arrested for his murder could have lured him to his death. It is a sad time...

Hello Raven,
I was very sad to read about your cousin's murder. My condolences to you and the rest of the family.
Carol

[Victor]

These things are actually in the room. Some person (whether Maybrick or not) was in that room and they actually did those things. Therefore, they had a reason for doing so.

No Tempus, that doesn't follow. Accident and coincidence are possible explanations. You perceive deliberate placement but haven't conclusively ruled out coincidental abandonment.

If they are not an FM, then what were they meant to be? Some unknown bloke murders MJK, carves a mark on here arm that ends up looking like an F - even though it's not meant to be. Then places a piece of her chemise on top of her body - again for some unknown reason - slap bang inbetween her left forearm and inner left thigh, so the whole thing ends up looking like an M. If it's not Maybrick then we have to give explanations for all these things.

Coincidence!

It's circular logic to say:-
1. You can see initials in the picture.
2. The "diary" suggests there will be initials in the picture.
3. Therefore the picture does show initials - i.e., the "diary" confirms your belief that the picture shows initials.
4. Therefore the initials in the picture confirm the authenticity of the "diary".

3 & 4 depend upon eachother, they are circular logic.

KR,
Vic.

[Livia]

My sympathies to you and your family Raven.

Liv

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

My sympathies to you and your family Raven.

Liv

Absolutely. Sorry to hear about this, Raven.

[Tempus omnia revelat]

What about Fanny Mortimer? Should she be considered Jill the Ripper?


Please do not be silly, Victor.

Maybe it's formed by 3 random slashes and a casually tossed chemise over the body?


If you think the mark on Kelly's left forearm is made of three random slashes, Victor, then that is up to you. I will never be able to convince you. Dear oh dear.

But whose handwriting doesn't match James Maybrick's will and letters.

Whose writing doesn't match the handwriting of James Maybrick's will and letter's! Ermm...almost everybody's, Victor, if you bother to look at the handwriting closely. Especially handwriting that is on specifically written ripper letters. Do you actually bother to look at anything that's in front of you.

Erm... there are numerous explanations for the Chapman coins, the Eddowes VV and various blood splatters.


What are they? They are delibertely placed items.

That's jumping the gun a bit - dubiously formed letters. Or letters you think are clearly formed. Try dropping 3 matchsticks, how many times does the random drop form the letter "F"? Quite a few for me (although I'm at work and used pens)

Again, Victor, you obviously have no idea what it takes to create such marks.

How do you know each of those things was a deliberate placement rather than being casual thrown over the cadaver?

Victor, I have explained all this before, you work it out.

KR,
Vic.

Kind regards,



Tempus

[Tempus omnia revelat]

No Tempus, that doesn't follow. Accident and coincidence are possible explanations. You perceive deliberate placement but haven't conclusively ruled out coincidental abandonment.

No they are not when you actually bother to stop, look and think about the items that are there.

Coincidence!

It's circular logic to say:-
1. You can see initials in the picture.
2. The "diary" suggests there will be initials in the picture.
3. Therefore the picture does show initials - i.e., the "diary" confirms your belief that the picture shows initials.
4. Therefore the initials in the picture confirm the authenticity of the "diary".

3 & 4 depend upon eachother, they are circular logic.

Victor, when you finally realise the reason why these items have been deliberately placed where they are, then I may be able to enter into some kind of debate with you. Until that time it is pointless, because all I am doing is covering old ground. Read my earlier posts.

KR,
Vic.

Kind regards,


Tempus

[Victor]

No they are not when you actually bother to stop, look and think about the items that are there.

Victor, when you finally realise the reason why these items have been deliberately placed where they are, then I may be able to enter into some kind of debate with you. Until that time it is pointless, because all I am doing is covering old ground. Read my earlier posts.

Tempus

Poe! http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law

KR,
Vic.

[RavenDarkendale]

Thank you, Livia and Sir Robert. 4 people have been arrested and charged with murder 1 in Stevie's death. May justice prevail.

God bless

Raven

[RavenDarkendale]

As I said, Tempus, the eye finds shapes where it wants. I actually found quite a different M formed by the body, and much more defined that this one.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/05-mar10.jpg

Now, this one also depends on a piece of chemise to draw attention to the line of the last stroke in the M.

I am not blind to the possibility that Maybrick was Jack the Ripper. I think perhaps you are blind to the fact that someone else could have been. You argue that the FM is deliberate, the diary confirms it, so ero, it must be.

I cannot that this as proof positive when the diary cannot be proven, and the FM (or FM's, as there seem to be more than one set) is subject to the view of the person who discovers it.

I think, my friend, that we are at an impasse. Neither of us is going to budge from our convictions. But may I say I have enjoyed our little debates. Time for me to move on and debate others over their suspects.

God bless and keep you

Raven