Maybrick--a Problem in Logic

[caz]

I don't want to be accused of ducking this question, so let me quickly answer.

Your explanation is clever, Caz, and I can see why you consider it an attractive possibility. You only need to change Caroline's testimony slightly--turning 'Tony' into 'Eddy' and it conforms to the Battlecrease provenance.

But I would counter that we don't really have any evidence that Barrett knew Eddy, but we have an abundance amount of evidence that Barrett knew Tony. It's difficult to believe that Little Caroline wouldn't have heard of her father's friend during these months, especially since he died. Children remember death.

You probably consider Anne's question "did you nick it, Mike?" as evidence in support of your theory. Fair enough.

I consider Devereux lending his daughter Mike's copy of 'Tales of Liverpool' as evidence in support of my own.

But, like you, I am also guilty of slightly changing Caroline's testimony: substituting a phone discussion about a Jack the Ripper typescript in the Summer of 1991 for an alleged discussion of a black ledger in the Summer of 1991.

Others will say we're both wrong and Little Caroline was simply prompted.

Well, to be fair, R.J, Mike and Eddie need not have been more than acquaintances in March 1992, and they'd have had a vested interest in not being seen in the Saddle, being all chummy with one another after that, if neither wanted it known that one had sold on the diary to the other. Far better for Mike to claim that someone he had known well, who was now in a place where he couldn't contradict it, had given him the diary, swearing that nobody else knew about it. The fact remains that Eddie and Mike did both use the Saddle, and Eddie was not only one of the Battlecrease electricians, but was living in March 1992 on the same road as Tony had lived until his death in 1991.

Children can only remember death if they are told about it. Would Caroline have known about Tony's death? It was in August 1991, while the Barretts were away on holiday, so it wasn't as if Mike was still combining the school run with courtesy visits to Tony when he unexpectedly had his fatal heart attack. Might her parents not have spared her that knowledge at the time? Come the new school year in September, would she know any different if dad dropped her off as before but went straight home until his afternoon pint, because Tony was no longer in need of his daily sherry or what have you? One of my daughter's school friends was not told about her own grandmother's death for some considerable time, because her parents were so worried about upsetting her that they put off telling her. I knew before she did! The same happened when the dog died. It was "with the vet" for weeks before they had the courage to break the bad news.

Love,

Caz
X

[Observer]

Some fair observations there, Observer. In a pre internet age, and working from an assumption that the diary is genuine, how did Mike pin down the poem cited? I mean, ok, he maybe could have read the passage and thought it seemed like a quote, but being able to identify the poem and obtain a copy of a book with it, for 'reference' purposes? Likewise, still assuming authenticity of said diary, say Mike recognises the line and knows it's a poem, and who it's author is, and is able to track down a copy, both scenarios show a level of knowledge and ability that is generally not credited to Mike. So, if he is the forger, we need to credit him with actually being alot more articulate than he certainly appeared in later years. And if he's not the forger, we need to credit him, well, you get the picture. Poor old Bongo. He really was his own worst enemy.

Yes Al, the Green Eyed God has a habit of causing mayhem, and that's what happened with the Diary saga. Looking at the section of the Diary in which OCIOD appears there's no way I would have picked it out as anything other than "Maybrick" waxing lyrical again, there's quite an abundance of verse displayed in the Diary. It beggars belief that Barrett picked up on it, there are no quotation marks. Even if he did, and he visited the library, where on Earth would you start? Barrett wanted to be a writer, and looking at the plethora of verse contained in the Diary I believe he fancied himself as a poet too. That's why he had that copy of the Sphere book, probably picked up second hand. I have no doubts but that he used the book as a reference when he penned the Diary of Jack The Ripper.

A quick word also with regard to Barrett's level of intelligence. Ike and his ilk tell us on the one hand that Barrett was as thick as a plank, not able to compose the signature on his own sick note. Yet they would have us believe he was capable of detailed research into the Diary's content. Of course recognising that OCIOD wasn't actually a Maybrick invention, and tracking it's author down to one Richard Crawshaw, an obscure 17th Century poet, is one example in point.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Some fair observations there, Observer. In a pre internet age, and working from an assumption that the diary is genuine, how did Mike pin down the poem cited? I mean, ok, he maybe could have read the passage and thought it seemed like a quote, but being able to identify the poem and obtain a copy of a book with it, for 'reference' purposes? Likewise, still assuming authenticity of said diary, say Mike recognises the line and knows it's a poem, and who it's author is, and is able to track down a copy, both scenarios show a level of knowledge and ability that is generally not credited to Mike. So, if he is the forger, we need to credit him with actually being alot more articulate than he certainly appeared in later years. And if he's not the forger, we need to credit him, well, you get the picture. Poor old Bongo. He really was his own worst enemy.

[Observer]

I've just realised something rather profound about your posts, Observer - they are actually just click bait only without the irritating adverts.

Come now Ike, me, disinformation ? That's your department surely, I'm thinking of the FM smeared in blood on Mary Kelly's wall here. But as Mr Palmer states, this is turning into a pot kettle bonanza. Lets stick to good solid responsible reasoning, and let the good readers decide who has the more solid argument.

[Iconoclast]

A fine example or pure waffle wouldn't you say dear readers?

I've just realised something rather profound about your posts, Observer - they are actually just click bait only without the irritating adverts.

[Observer]

I very much doubted that Keith had the receipt for Barrett's purchase of the dog-eared Sphere volume which Alan Gray sold him and I wasn't even vaguely concerned about that fact but - just to clarify it for you - I wrote to Keith last evening to ask him and he has confirmed that he doesn't have the receipt (indeed, again for clarity, never had the receipt). Unless Barrett had left it inside the book, it is unlikely that Gray would have had it. Barrett - for the record - was not present when Gray sold it to Keith (as I understand it).



Well I am genuinely surprised to find that Robert said that as I could have sworn (but may well be wrong or getting mixed-up with some other) that it had gone into print by Robert that a number of copies had been available around the time Barrett purchased his dog-eared one.

Just for clarity from you Roger - what sense do you make of Keith Skinner purchasing from Alan Gray a clearly-used copy of the Sphere text which Gray claimed he had received from Michael Barrett? I assume that you believe that Bongo had the copy all along and had turned to it for a single 'quotation' (it's not actually a quotation, as I explained to Observer yesterday - it's more of an 'inspiration') before putting it back on his shelf. Assuming that this is what you believe, do you also believe that Barrett received it from Sphere in pristine, saleable condition or do you think he made that bit up? If he made it up, did he buy the dog-eared copy intentionally (for poetic 'inspiration' for his hoax) or do you think he had it anyway on his bookshelves? If you think the latter, do you think there were many Liverpool working class households with just such a text within their walls?

The questions just go on and on (if you try to argue that there is some sort of mystery to this). Alternatively, if you reflect on what we know for a FACT (now always remember that, ladies and gentlemen), there is a Victorian scrapbook containing the ramblings of Jack the Ripper, a man who owns it, the same man who revealed where the quotation came from, the same man who got pissed-off, pissed-up and suddenly said it was part of a hoax he dreamed-up using a pristine copy of a text which was in his loft, the same man who employed a private detective who sold a dog-eared copy of that text to Keith Skinner saying it was the one Barrett owned.

Call me crazy, but it sounds to me like Michael Barrett came into possession of Jack the Ripper's scrapbook. He then researched it sufficiently to believe in it. He then sought to have it published. As part of his contribution to the ongoing research, he and his wife were asked to help locate the 'inspiration' which - because he had nothing else to do all day - he successfully achieved. Seeking his own copy of the source, he then seeks out a copy in bookshops in Liverpool. He finds a dog-eared ex-student copy and purchases it. He then eventually gives it to Alan Gray who he doesn't pay for his services in tracking down his errant wife, so Gray sells it to Keith Skinner, who does not request any receipt for the purchase never mind the original one.

Hey - and why not make the dog-eared Sphere book part of his sworn affidavit of January 5th 1995, as well as the O&L auction ticket, the red diary, and the receipt for the red diary? In fact, why did he not show any of this forensic evidence to Harold Brough? Actually, he did show the book to Alan Gray but Gray might have been astute enough to realise that it didn’t quite look like it was part of an unused series sent to Mike by Sphere in order to raise funds for Hillsborough. Gray was keen to support Mike's tale, but not keen enough to ignore the blatantly obvious fact that the Sphere book he possessed looked nothing like Mike was claiming it to be.

Hmmm. Pots, kettles, black and white stripes, jumpers for goalposts, Saudis dancing on the sand at Titley Bay … it's not getting even vaguely old for me, Rog.

Ike

A fine example or pure waffle wouldn't you say dear readers?

[Observer]

You are well fooled, sir.

Barrett claimed he had a brand new copy (from a Hillsborough disaster donation that no-one wanted to buy - clearly too erudite a freebie for even a Scouser to jump at) but the reality is that he purchased a second-hand version from a Liverpool book shop a few days after he found the quotation in the Liverpool Central Library.

I had an idea you'd trot out that lame duck again Ike. It doesn't work you know. Lets think, The Bard of Goldie Street has in his possesion the infamous "Hoax Of all time" as you like to title it (that's a joke in itself). He gives it the once over, and then decides to do a little research into it's content.

"Ere Anne look at this"

"What is it dearest" answers his beloved Judy

"This ere, look, I do believe this is a quote from one of those fancy poems"

"Gis a look. Oh aye, yer could be right Wack, although dear, there's verses all over the place in dat Diary, I've had a look " exclaims Anne.

"Aye, but this is different, those other verses are by the fella wot wrote der diary, this is different I reckon"

"Oh Mike you are clever" chirps Anne

And so without further ado, the thick as a Docker's butty( according to Ike et al) Mike Barrett alights upon Liverpool Central Library, the next day, and without any reference to the author of "O Costly Intercourse of Death" or indeed not even knowing if it's a passage from a poem, manages to find a book in the library, which includes said poem! Pretty impressive for a dullard don't you think? Yer right.

But it gets better. Within a few days Mike Barrett, again, the same fella, you know the one, if brains were dynamite he wouldn't have enough to blow his cap off, manages to find his own copy of a book with OCIOD sitting there center stage in all it's glory within. You couldn't make it up. Well I tell a lie, old Ike there has done just that.

No Sir Ike, it is you who are easily fooled.

Barrett had the Sphere book all along. It's as plain as the nose on your face.

Here is the passage from the Diary/Journal in question.

"I will go on, nothing will stop me nothing. Cut Sir Jim cut. Cut deep deep deep

Sir Jim will cut them all
Oh costly intercourse
of death"

Now then dear reader, considering that the Journal is littered with verse, would you be able to single out OCIOD, and reason that rather than it being a verse penned by the author of the Journal, that is Sir Jim, Sir Jim is actually quoting the poet Crawshaw? Ike would have us believe Mike Barrett did. Not bad for an imbecile I'd say.

And you are attempting to well fool your readers, sir.

The short piece of doggerel (tis love that spurred me so) which appears merely (and logically) indented on page 267 could never be described as 'a new line halfway across the page'. The line may end up in the centre of the page but it most certainly does not start there. You are either mistaken or you have attempted to deceive and we have too much of that on this Casebook - false reporting to make a point at the expense of honour and honesty.

Ike

Haha, to coin a Mike Barrett favourite. I attempt to decive? From a man who would have us believe that Maybrick was Jack The Ripper. That's a bit rich is it not?

I was merely offering a solution as to why Barret would want to start mid page with the letter S. Perhaps he intended a heading beginning with S. The thing is if there is an S under that blot, as Barrett implied, then it's game over.

[Iconoclast]

Hold your horses, Ike.

And does Keith have the receipt/auction ticket for Mike's purchase of this dog-eared copy of the Sphere Guide, or are we just taking it on faith this time around?

I very much doubted that Keith had the receipt for Barrett's purchase of the dog-eared Sphere volume which Alan Gray sold him and I wasn't even vaguely concerned about that fact but - just to clarify it for you - I wrote to Keith last evening to ask him and he has confirmed that he doesn't have the receipt (indeed, again for clarity, never had the receipt). Unless Barrett had left it inside the book, it is unlikely that Gray would have had it. Barrett - for the record - was not present when Gray sold it to Keith (as I understand it).

PS. This pot, kettle, black, tit for tat is getting kind of old, isn't it? It might interest you that Robert Smith pointed out several years ago on this site that that particular edition of The Sphere Guide is not easy to find. Smith wrote that he looked for it in dozens of bookshops and had never seen it. So, the Miracle of Research set aside, it still stretches credibility well beyond the breaking point that Barrett ran out and found a copy of The Sphere and then had the wherewithal to lodge it with his solicitor. The tour de force of deception that you describe is more difficult to believe than Barrett simply taking part in the creation of the hoax. And you have your ignoramus Bongo doing it![/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

Well I am genuinely surprised to find that Robert said that as I could have sworn (but may well be wrong or getting mixed-up with some other) that it had gone into print by Robert that a number of copies had been available around the time Barrett purchased his dog-eared one.

Just for clarity from you Roger - what sense do you make of Keith Skinner purchasing from Alan Gray a clearly-used copy of the Sphere text which Gray claimed he had received from Michael Barrett? I assume that you believe that Bongo had the copy all along and had turned to it for a single 'quotation' (it's not actually a quotation, as I explained to Observer yesterday - it's more of an 'inspiration') before putting it back on his shelf. Assuming that this is what you believe, do you also believe that Barrett received it from Sphere in pristine, saleable condition or do you think he made that bit up? If he made it up, did he buy the dog-eared copy intentionally (for poetic 'inspiration' for his hoax) or do you think he had it anyway on his bookshelves? If you think the latter, do you think there were many Liverpool working class households with just such a text within their walls?

The questions just go on and on (if you try to argue that there is some sort of mystery to this). Alternatively, if you reflect on what we know for a FACT (now always remember that, ladies and gentlemen), there is a Victorian scrapbook containing the ramblings of Jack the Ripper, a man who owns it, the same man who revealed where the quotation came from, the same man who got pissed-off, pissed-up and suddenly said it was part of a hoax he dreamed-up using a pristine copy of a text which was in his loft, the same man who employed a private detective who sold a dog-eared copy of that text to Keith Skinner saying it was the one Barrett owned.

Call me crazy, but it sounds to me like Michael Barrett came into possession of Jack the Ripper's scrapbook. He then researched it sufficiently to believe in it. He then sought to have it published. As part of his contribution to the ongoing research, he and his wife were asked to help locate the 'inspiration' which - because he had nothing else to do all day - he successfully achieved. Seeking his own copy of the source, he then seeks out a copy in bookshops in Liverpool. He finds a dog-eared ex-student copy and purchases it. He then eventually gives it to Alan Gray who he doesn't pay for his services in tracking down his errant wife, so Gray sells it to Keith Skinner, who does not request any receipt for the purchase never mind the original one.

Hey - and why not make the dog-eared Sphere book part of his sworn affidavit of January 5th 1995, as well as the O&L auction ticket, the red diary, and the receipt for the red diary? In fact, why did he not show any of this forensic evidence to Harold Brough? Actually, he did show the book to Alan Gray but Gray might have been astute enough to realise that it didn’t quite look like it was part of an unused series sent to Mike by Sphere in order to raise funds for Hillsborough. Gray was keen to support Mike's tale, but not keen enough to ignore the blatantly obvious fact that the Sphere book he possessed looked nothing like Mike was claiming it to be.

Hmmm. Pots, kettles, black and white stripes, jumpers for goalposts, Saudis dancing on the sand at Titley Bay … it's not getting even vaguely old for me, Rog.

Ike

[rjpalmer]

but the reality is that he purchased a second-hand version from a Liverpool book shop a few days after he found the quotation in the Liverpool Central Library. The copy he purchased was dog-eared, well-thumbed, and evidently originally belonged to an English Literature student

Hold your horses, Ike.

And does Keith have the receipt/auction ticket for Mike's purchase of this dog-eared copy of the Sphere Guide, or are we just taking it on faith this time around?

From what I've been reading all week, only a receipt will settle matters once and for all when it comes to Mike's mysterious purchases.

Unless you can produce the receipt for this alleged purchase, I'll be forced to draw my own conclusions about why Barrett never turned the receipt over to Keith when he assumed ownership of the book. I learned that attitude from Caz.

PS. This pot, kettle, black, tit for tat is getting kind of old, isn't it? It might interest you that Robert Smith pointed out several years ago on this site that that particular edition of The Sphere Guide is not easy to find. Smith wrote that he looked for it in dozens of bookshops and had never seen it. So, the Miracle of Research set aside, it still stretches credibility well beyond the breaking point that Barrett ran out and found a copy of The Sphere and then had the wherewithal to lodge it with his solicitor. The tour de force of deception that you describe is more difficult to believe than Barrett simply taking part in the creation of the hoax. And you have your ignoramus Bongo doing it!

[Iconoclast]

Now I realise I'm going over old ground here, apologies to the well initiated, but I've never heard a satisfactory answer to this this old chestnut. From Mike Barrett's confession 1995

"Page 250 book, page 44 Diary, centre page, quote: "OH COSTLY INTERCOURSE OF DEATH". This quotation I took from SPHERE HISTORY OF LITERATURE, Volume 2 English Poetry and Prose 1540-1671, Ediated by Christopher Ricks, however, Anne Barrett made a mistake when she wrote it down, she should have written down 'O' not 'OH'."

How did Mike Barrett know that "OH COSTLY INTERCOURSE OF DEATH" appeared in SPHERE HISTORY OF LITERATURE, Volume 2 English Poetry and Prose 1540-1671, Ediated by Christopher Ricks?

Answer. He owned such a book. By the way Barrett is correct in pointing out that it's "O COSTLY", and not "OH COSTLY"

You are well fooled, sir.

Barrett claimed he had a brand new copy (from a Hillsborough disaster donation that no-one wanted to buy - clearly too erudite a freebie for even a Scouser to jump at) but the reality is that he purchased a second-hand version from a Liverpool book shop a few days after he found the quotation in the Liverpool Central Library. The copy he purchased was dog-eared, well-thumbed, and evidently originally belonged to an English Literature student who had annotated relevant sections they were working on for an essay (quite unrelated to Crashaw, by the way). I think I may be right in saying that this book is now owned by the researcher Keith Skinner who purchased it from Barrett's Ace Detective Alan Gray (who was probably just relieved to get some form of payment 'out of' Barrett, albeit indirectly).

So it matters not a jot that Barrett pointed-out that Maybrick spelled 'O costly ...' as 'Oh costly ...' - he knew it because he had the original scrapbook and he discovered the poem itself. He correctly noticed the erring rendition in the scrapbook (big deal!) but the spelling error is quite irrelevant to Barrett's claims to have written the scrapbook. And - for the record - Maybrick did not cite a reference for 'Oh costly ...' nor did he use inverted commas to indicate a quotation, so in that regard he was not 'incorrect' when he wrote 'oh costly ...' - he was entitled to write whatever he wanted. If I choose to write in my personal journal something along the lines of That there’s some corner of a foreign field that's forever England, I may intend to write it this way and not the original way. To have erred, I would have to have prefaced it along the lines of, ' as Rupert Brooke wrote ...' at which point my errors would have significance.

And you are attempting to well fool your readers, sir.

The short piece of doggerel (tis love that spurred me so) which appears merely (and logically) indented on page 267 could never be described as 'a new line halfway across the page'. The line may end up in the centre of the page but it most certainly does not start there. You are either mistaken or you have attempted to deceive and we have too much of that on this Casebook - false reporting to make a point at the expense of honour and honesty.

Ike

[Observer]

Now I realise I'm going over old ground here, apologies to the well initiated, but I've never heard a satisfactory answer to this this old chestnut. From Mike Barrett's confession 1995

"Page 250 book, page 44 Diary, centre page, quote: "OH COSTLY INTERCOURSE OF DEATH". This quotation I took from SPHERE HISTORY OF LITERATURE, Volume 2 English Poetry and Prose 1540-1671, Ediated by Christopher Ricks, however, Anne Barrett made a mistake when she wrote it down, she should have written down 'O' not 'OH'."

How did Mike Barrett know that "OH COSTLY INTERCOURSE OF DEATH" appeared in SPHERE HISTORY OF LITERATURE, Volume 2 English Poetry and Prose 1540-1671, Ediated by Christopher Ricks?

Answer. He owned such a book. By the way Barrett is correct in pointing out that it's "O COSTLY", and not "OH COSTLY"

[Observer]

I think Mike was trying too hard, Observer - a rather transparent trap that you might be advised to avoid falling into.

Ike

Just one more thing. It's apparent that you believe Mike Barrett has looked at the scrapbook, and formulated an idea whereby insinuating that an S lies beneath an inkblot, people will believe that it was he who forged the Diary. If this is the case it shows a certain cunning, a certain imagination, a certain intelligence does it not? And this from a man who couldn't sign his own sick note. Talk about having your cake and eating it.

[Observer]

The thing is, there's no way in the World that the present owner's of that hoax of a Journal would agree to such a test

[Observer]

Mike trying too hard? Well that remains to be seen doesn't it. As far as traps are concerned you've fell into the mother of all traps if you believe Maybrick was the author of the scrapbook. Also, if you look at page 267 in the book he starts a new line halfway across the page. He might have been contemplating something similar here, and changed his mind.

[Iconoclast]

I was looking at Mike Barrett's January 5th 1995 confession and something struck me. Look at this section of the confession

"Page 228 of the book, page 22 Diary, centre top verse large ink blot which covers the letter 's' which Anne Barrett wrote down by mistake."

Sure enough, when I looked at this page in my copy of "The Diary Of Jack The Ripper" there was the blot. Now, I wonder if there is the technology out there to see through this blot to determine if there is indeed an S underneath that blot. If this is the case, then it's game over wouldn't you say?

It would be extremely interesting to find that there was a dry or indeed still wet 'S' underneath that ink blot. It would be even more interesting if - in micro-writing - there was also the explanation for:

1) Why Anne Barrett (as was) was starting a new word precisely there (the centre of the page) where no other line on that page did so, and (far more importantly)

2) Why she and/or Mike would care enough about the error to blot it out (when so many entries in the scrapbook are simply scored out by a line of ink).

I think Mike was trying too hard, Observer - a rather transparent trap that you might be advised to avoid falling into.

Ike