Fake!

[Livia]

In furtherance of what Sir Bob has posted....

In the days following the Grand National, Florence
told Dr Hopper that she couldn't stand to have Maybrick
near her and they'd not shared a bed for two years.
Maybrick had blackened her eye the night before, so
perhaps had he lived long enough he may have done
worse. But to say Maybrick had a "normal" sex life,
does not appear to be true. Maybrick often told
friends his medicine strengthened him and to the
Victorian mind, arsenic and strychnine were aphrodisiacs.

Maybrick gambled every day of his working life. He
was a commodities broker (cotton), where the aim
was to buy low and sell high. He dealt in futures,
so every time he placed an order, he was betting
that whatever he paid for cotton in the US,
could be recouped in the UK market at a profit.
In fact, he was such a gambler that the week
before he died, he left his sickbed and rode out
to the Wirral races in the rain.

Liv

[caz]

It just strikes me as odd that someone with a Victorian middle class education would mistake 'there' for 'their' or 'of' for 'off' etc. Both of my parents had decidedly working class upbringings and neither went on to further education. Yet both would be mortified by mistakes like this. Our diarist does not understand apostrophe use either. One might think that Victorian teaching would have been firmly rooted in the three Rs and simple rules like these would have been drummed into pupils.

Hi Steve,

My parents would have been similarly mortified by mistakes like that. But you can find similar and worse - much, much worse - scattered all over the boards, and made by otherwise intelligent and educated posters who want to be taken seriously. You'd think that writing in public would make a difference from writing for oneself, in one's diary for instance, but it doesn't seem to in many cases!

I didn't think our diarist had too much trouble with apostrophes where he/she bothered to use them. Could you give me a few examples? St. James's is correct, for a start, where lesser folk would get that one wrong.

Rules can be 'drummed' into pupils only if the pupils are willing and able to use them. There have always been failures from any school, however good the teaching.

Love,

Caz
X

[miss marple]

By normal sex life I simply mean Maybrick had sexual intercourse with women, he was not repulsed sexually by them.
There is an indication that Jack was repulsed by women and their sexual organs,that he hated them, there is no suggestion that he had intercourse with them before murdering them. There is an element of control in Jack's actions and I do not believe he was a regular user for sex and it is possible his hatred goes back to his relationship with his mother, she may have been a prostitute, he may have been abused as a child. I don't believe sexual satisfaction was his motive.

People can disagree, we all have our own theories. That's the point of the casebook.
Maybrick may have been a sexist pig, but he did'nt 'hate' women. Many Victorian men led double lives, keeping two wives, examples being Wilkie Collins and George Cruikshank, as divorce was almost impossible and scandalous. I cant see a motive for that form of murder and mutilation. The diary has coloured the view of him.

Miss Marple
Graham it is exceedingly insulting the working class Victorians to suggest they could barely hold pens. My working class grandparents who left school at 14 both had good copperplate handwriting.

[Graham]

Miss Marple
Graham it is exceedingly insulting the working class Victorians to suggest they could barely hold pens. My working class grandparents who left school at 14 both had good copperplate handwriting

.

Miss Marple, I wasn't insulting anyone and I think you've over-reacted here. From my own personal experience, going to an English working-class primary-school in 1951, a lot of the kids had never held a pen before, and had to be shown how. I was fortunate in that I was encouraged at home to read and write from an early age. I also happen to know people of my age and younger who are barely literate, so for you to suggest, as you seem to be, that all working-class Victorians were able to write as soon as they were given a pen, is something of an exaggeration. Why, for example, should a farm-labourer feel the need to read and write in Victorian times?

'Copperplate' is the script which these days can still be seen on, for example, business-cards, posh invitations, and so forth. It used to be referred to in earlier times as 'a clerkly hand', and I really have to take issue with you on this, because it was not used as everyday hand-writing by the vast majority of Victorians. My brother is (amongst other things) a calligrapher, and it takes him a long, long time to write anything in what he describes as 'copperplate'.

Graham

[caz]

Victorians were taught handwriting at school[ copperplate] so there is a generic similarity with the hand writing.

Why would Liverpool businessman Maybrick, unpleasant and drug addicted as he may have been take trips to the East end of London to mutilate and murder obscure whores. There is no evidence for this or that he was intimate with the area There is no motive, he had a mistress and a normal sex life. The dangers involved in going to the east end are far greater and more complex for a middle class man from a different city than a local. If he had such murderous instincts, and hated women so much, he could have started with Flo.
I think he was far too self obsessed to be a murderer, obsessed with his health and selfish. Not the sort of guy to take the sort of uncomfortable risks and gambles involved in being a serial killer.

I didn't know where to start with all this, but I see that others have already addressed the main issues.

Why did unemployed Colin Ireland take trips by train from Southend in Essex to one gay pub in Fulham, west London, purely for the purpose of picking up strangers to murder and mutilate in their own homes? He did this on at least five occasions in 1993, after the diary emerged but before it was published. How lucky could our hoaxer have got, describing a travelling man's well-planned campaign of murder and mutilation so uncannily similar to the real life example given by Ireland, even as the diary was being researched in the run up to going public?

The diarist clearly knew very well how 'intimate' the real James was with the area, how he regularly used prostitutes, lived a semi-secret double life with two families and an addiction to a range of deadly poisonous substances.

How many men with murderous instincts do you know who 'started' with their own wives and were able to go on indulging those instincts? How many murderers do you know who were not totally 'self obsessed'? Good grief. The real James Maybrick needn't have killed anyone, but you don't know the man at all if you think he didn't take potentially lethal, never mind uncomfortable risks with his health and safety from morning to night! The serial killer operating in the anonymous East End of 1888 arguably took fewer risks, only needing to avoid being caught in the act, just like the thousands of men who were never seen in the act of being serviced by a street prossie.

Love,

Caz
X

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

People can disagree, we all have our own theories. That's the point of the casebook.

Of course. But you were saying James Maybrick had no ties to Whitechapel. Base on the historical record, that's incorrect. So no one should have that notion as part of their theory.

Maybrick may have been a sexist pig, but he did'nt 'hate' women.

I would like to think that several of us here know a fair amount about the "real" Maybricks, and I wouldn't pretend to know how he felt about women, and prostitutes in specific. I would imagine he wasn't happy about getting kicked out of Flo's bed but that doesn't make him a serial killer of course. But as we don't have very much of his correspondence I wouldn't hazard a guess about what was going on in his drug addled brain. But drug addicts do strange things at times.

But do all serial killers of prostitutes hate women? Serious question.

[Steven Russell]

Hi Steve,


I didn't think our diarist had too much trouble with apostrophes where he/she bothered to use them.

Love,

Caz
X

Hello, Caz.
Don't have the book to hand at the moment but the problems are (as I remember) when he misses them out, which he frequently does.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[RavenDarkendale]

I have often wondered if we could take this case to court, using available evidence, just how it would sound to 12 ordinary citizens.

In the dock: James Maybrick, alleged to be Jack the Ripper
Charge: Between four and nine murders, depending on your viewpoint
Evidence for prosecution: The infamous Diary and watch
Position of the Defense: The Diary and Watch are so much bull

Opening argument for Prosecution: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury we intend to prove that the defendant, James Maybrick, alias Jack the Ripper, was the willful and premeditated murder of (insert number) women, all of them poor, pitiful unfortunates. James Maybrick, this monster before you, cut the ladies' throats and then proceeded in the vilest manner to desecrate and mutilate their bodies. We intend to prove that Maybrick wrote all of this down in a diary that has come to light recently, in the most shocking detail, and with no sign of remorse. Maybrick also carved initials of some of his victims inside this gold watch, which the defendant was in the habit of carrying. A confession that he is Jack the Ripper is carved by his own hand inside this terrifying timepiece. We will leave you with no doubt that Maybrick committed murder most foul, and leave you no choice but to find him guilty, and send him to the gallows he richly deserves."

Opening for the Defense: "The Prosecution has spun you a tale of mayhem and murder. No one denies that the crimes of Jack the Ripper are deserving of the ultimate punishment. However, we will show that Mr. James Maybrick, a wealthy, upstanding citizen of good reputation, could not have committed these alleged crimes. We will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the alleged "Diary" is not in Mr. Maybrick's handwriting. We will further show that in point of fact, he never kept a journal of any sort. As for this celebrated watch, the casing is engraved with the initials JO, which are not my client's initials. The whole scheme of the "diary" and "watch" are an attempt to blacken the name of a well beloved citizen, and an attempt to murder him by hangman. You have only one choice: Find Mr. James Maybrick not guilty and return him to his family."

Aside: Neither speech is totally factual, but we are dealing with Lawyer speak!

Judge: Mr. Prosecutor, call first witness

Prosecutor: We wish to call Micheal Barret...

Prosecution leads Barret through the finding of the diary. Defense objects to nearly every question.
Defense cross examination: Questions Barret's honesty, that he confessed to forgery, that the diary is a fake. Prosecution objects to nearly every question.

Long run of expert witnesses, who get to testify when the Prosecution and Defense aren't objecting, quarreling, and being reprimanded by the Judge for their attitudes.

Watch is introduced. The air grows thick with spittle as Prosecution and Defense argue every point.

More experts testify. Judge threatens to throw the lawyers out of court.

Prosecution rests.

Defense calls their own experts. Prosecution rags them on cross examination. The handwriting, paper, ink, tone, facts, etc. of the diary are discussed ad infinitum. The watch case, scratches, and discovery are argued ad nauseum. Maybrick's whereabouts are argued until neither lawyer can stand up.

Defense rests

Closing arguments repeat opening arguments except that each lawyer questions the sanity, the knowledge, and even the parentage of the opposing counsel.

Judge instructs jury that they must render a verdict on facts only, not what they might think of the defendant or victims, and certainly not on the performance of the lawyers.

Jury returns: Verdict is that neither party can prove anything and the suspect being assumed innocent until proven guilty, is free to go as an innocent man,

The lawyers immediately file appeals, and also arrange for a duel: Pistols at 25 paces at dawn...

Just humor here friends

God Bless

Raven

[Stephen Thomas]

Just humor here friends

Thanks Raven

That's the best Maybrick post I ever saw.

[Iain Wilson]

I don't think miakaal4 was writing a novel, Iain. Besides, I was more interested in his points than in his Question Marks.

I was referencing the feeling miakaal attributes to the diarist, not miakaal's post.

[RavenDarkendale]

Thanks Raven

That's the best Maybrick post I ever saw.

Well a little humor never hurt anyone, and sometimes eases tension during heated debates. The truth about the diary, watch, and James Maybrick as suspect has yet to be proven either way, guilty or not guilty. It becomes a question of what one believes. One thing for certain most people on either side, guilty or innocent, diary/watch real or fake, will ever admit that they could be mistaken. I'm one of the few that takes the middle ground of we cannot prove anything.

I mean: If the diary is a fake, who forged it and why? How did they learn facts about Maybrick? Where did they learn to write like a deranged person? Why are some clues in the diary present in evidence, even if we require the diary in order to know what to look for? How was the "discovery" of the diary arranged? Why did Barret confess to forgery?

If the diary is genuine: Why was there not a murder inquiry in Manchester? Why doesn't Maybrick know that his brother wrote music not lyrics? Why isn't it written in Maybrick's handwriting? Why are parts of the diary clear and others need to be explained to understand them? Why did it take so long to surface? Why are experts certain that forgery is "impossible"?"

God bless

Darkendale

[miakaal4]

Hi Iain,
Endless apologies old chap, may have got a bit carried away. Still a lot of what I said unanswered though. The way the Maybrick clan behaved while James was dying would have Mr Shelock Holmes dribbling over his magnifying glass! They were as bent as a glass cricket ball.

[caz]

Why was there not a murder inquiry in Manchester? Why doesn't Maybrick know that his brother wrote music not lyrics?

Just a quickie, Raven,

The diary leaves the supposed Manchester attack(s) vague enough to allow for the victim to have survived a strangulation attempt, which she, or the papers, failed to report.

The diary makes it clear that Maybrick does know his brother writes music - "he writes a merry tune". No mention of song lyrics written by either brother (although we now know that Michael did in fact write some), just Michael's superior ability at rhyming verse. And let's face it, he could hardly have been worse at it than 'Sir Jim', could he?

Love,

Caz
X

[Tempus omnia revelat]

Can you be more precise about that letter Tempus? i have not the diary book at hand as it is in storage. I do have letters from Hell is it in there? Victorians were taught handwriting at school[ copperplate] so there is a generic similarity with the hand writing. It was taught in schools until the 1950s. I was taught it. My handwriting is untidy but I can produce a good style if necessary.


I have gone on in other posts about the tearing out of the pages, having seen handled and owned many Victorian journals, diaries scrap books etc I can only say again, the majority of them are only half or three quarters filled, so acquiring one and tearing out the written pages is a given. Thirty odd years ago Liverpool was one of the great places for dealers to buy Victoriana. when I was doing Portobello market there were several dealers who went up there on a regular basis and come back with very interesting stuff. Scrap books were easy to pick up.
Nothing will convince me the diary is other than a fake, it has more in common with all the great fakes than any real literary discoveries.
Also rationality flies out the window when discussing the diary.
Why would Liverpool businessman Maybrick, unpleasant and drug addicted as he may have been take trips to the East end of London to mutilate and murder obscure whores. There is no evidence for this or that he was intimate with the area There is no motive, he had a mistress and a normal sex life. The dangers involved in going to the east end are far greater and more complex for a middle class man from a different city than a local. If he had such murderous instincts, and hated women so much, he could have started with Flo.
I think he was far too self obsessed to be a murderer, obsessed with his health and selfish. Not the sort of guy to take the sort of uncomfortable risks and gambles involved in being a serial killer.
Innocent people don't need alibis. A guilty person with standing in the community, would make sure he had some.

Cheers Miss Marple

Sorry, Miss Marple, just seen your message. The first letter was sent on the 21st of Nov from Hornsey N and was picked out by the original diary team as being in the hand of one of Maybrick's company memos. The 'J,' 'froms' and 'yous' are particularly striking. The whole flow of the writing is similar. The second was posted the day after in Stoke Newington (again North London) and was picked out by me as being in the same handwriting as the diary -it is very specific. I will try and post them here for you later.

Both these letters were picked out by two different camps, at differing times, as being in a similar handwriting to either JM or the diary writer. Both these letters were sent from the same district (a day after one another); and both these letters were sent in the exact gap when Maybrick could have been in London between the two times he was seeing his doctor in Liverpool (19th and the 22nd of Nov). Yet another coincidence.

The writer of this so-called fake diary really does have incredible luck. He forges a diary without trying to copy anyone's handwriting and then is lucky enough to have two original letters held in the PRO (which he presumably didn't know anything about) that not only match the handwriting of JM, but also his own handwriting. These two letters fitting in exactly with the exact gap when Maybrick could have been in London.

It is not proof, Miss Marple, but it is yet again another remarkable coincidence surrounding the diary.





Kind regards,


Tempus

[RavenDarkendale]

The diary makes it clear that Maybrick does know his brother writes music - "he writes a merry tune". No mention of song lyrics written by either brother (although we now know that Michael did in fact write some), just Michael's superior ability at rhyming verse. And let's face it, he could hardly have been worse at it than 'Sir Jim', could he?

Love,

Caz
X

@ Caz

To which the writer of the diary proceeds to compose rhymes to show that he is as clever as Michael. Wouldn't he have tried to at least make them able to be whistled, if he couldn't write music? I say this because as a poet myself many or most of my poems can be sung. Here for example:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?38056-Subject-Poetry-Contest&p=1173177&viewfull=1#post1173177

Yeah, David Arthur Pendragon is another alias, much like Ewen Raven Darkendale...

Right back atcha!

Darkendale