Diary to Ripper letter handwriting comparison

[Iconoclast]

Yes I see what you did there very clever.

Good lad! This time you only needed to keep the last word ...

[John Wheat]

It may well indeed be common, but I think your argument fell away with the addition of one more word.

Yes I see what you did there very clever.

[Iconoclast]

No just common sense.

It may well indeed be common, but I think your argument fell away with the addition of one more word.

[John Wheat]

More of your intuitive biases, John?

No just common sense.

[Iconoclast]

That is a ridiculous comparison.

More of your intuitive biases, John?

[John Wheat]

It is impossible to argue that the scrapbook has not yet been categorically proven to be authentic, but not being proven is certainly not the same as the case for authenticity being poor. If argument worked in that simple and dichotomous fashion, then we should all be down the bookies putting our life savings on Man City winning the Premiership this season because Liverpool's chances of winning it (still needing a maximum of 12 points from an available 33 having dropped only 2 points in 81 all season) are therefore poor.

That is a ridiculous comparison.

[Iconoclast]

I agree Druitt, Kosminski and Chapman are rubbish suspects however you cannot prove the diary is the real deal therefore Maybrick joins those three as another poor suspect.

It is impossible to argue that the scrapbook has not yet been categorically proven to be authentic, but not being proven is certainly not the same as the case for authenticity being poor. If argument worked in that simple and dichotomous fashion, then we should all be down the bookies putting our life savings on Man City winning the Premiership this season because Liverpool's chances of winning it (still needing a maximum of 12 points from an available 33 having dropped only 2 points in 81 all season) are therefore poor.

[John Wheat]

I agree Druitt, Kosminski and Chapman are rubbish suspects however you cannot prove the diary is the real deal therefore Maybrick joins those three as another poor suspect.

[Iconoclast]

Oh and by the way, to argue that Tempest's excellent work was 'pointless' was deeply ironic coming from one of those whose contribution to the case has been marginally higher than zero (unless you did not have access to an incredibly powerful microscope, that is, in which case it would be zero).

The loss of Tempest to this site was deeply felt by people like me who value evidence first, biases twenty-second. He (or she) highlighted some intriguing aspects of the Maybrick case and the case would have been much the worse for their abstention from it or (as now) their eventual absence.

You cannot look at the similarity of handwriting which Tempest has highlighted and not consider this to - at very least - be an issue to dutifully review and consider without otherwise immediately revealling the biases under which your train of thought passes rather too often.

[Iconoclast]

The provenance of the diary is appalling. If the diary is the genuine article then prove it.

The provenance of the scrapbook may well - in your opinion - be weak but your opinion only really serves here to reveal your deeply-held biases. I agree that two solid potential histories is pathetic compared with, say, the provenance behind every other Ripper candidate; and that the evidence against Maybrick is nominal when juxtaposed with the overwhelming body of research which implicates the bloke who might have been called Aaron Kosminsky (but equally might not have been) or the direct, unequivocal links within the case to Druitt, Chapman, etc.. Maybrick is a shot-in-the-dark compared with these evidential luminaries.

Nevertheless, the point I made (previous post) was regarding your casual - nay sloppy (nay crude) - use of the dismissive 'unlikely' twice in one sentence when 'arguing' (I know, I flatter you) an anti-Maybrick point. If we stick to the point ever so briefly (and not run off in tangents when the heat goes up), we will see my comment in the light it was intended to shine under: you relied on confirmation bias to construct your position, and the rest of us don't give a **** about your biases.

Hope that has helped you and all other readers to understand that I am considerably cleverer than everyone else.

Ike

[John Wheat]

Wow, don't waste any time with anything resembling evidence, Detective! Just cut straight to your preferred conclusion - that's of course how you get the outcome you want.

In other words, on what grounds - other than the position you have adopted regarding Maybrick - do you determine the 'unlikely' nature of these possibilities???

The provenance of the diary is appalling. If the diary is the genuine article then prove it.

[Iconoclast]

Considering its unlikely any letters were written by Jack and even more unlikely the diary was written by Jack isn't this thread pointless?

Wow, don't waste any time with anything resembling evidence, Detective! Just cut straight to your preferred conclusion - that's of course how you get the outcome you want.

In other words, on what grounds - other than the position you have adopted regarding Maybrick - do you determine the 'unlikely' nature of these possibilities???

[John Wheat]

Considering its unlikely any letters were written by Jack and even more unlikely the diary was written by Jack isn't this thread pointless?

[erobitha]

ONE MAN WENT TO MOW ...

A Post in Recognition of the Achievements of the Chelsea Footballing Emporium of Chelsea, London, England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom Thereof (and Anywhere Else We've Stolen Over the Long Years) ...

Counting songs were certainly about at the time of Jack the Lad, certainly if you believe Wiki:

A playground song is a song sung by children, usually on a playground or other children's gathering place. Most such songs are traditional in nature and are passed, with constantly evolving regional variations, down the generations. They have been studied for over a century, with H.C Bolton publishing a paper on "The counting out rhymes of children" in New York in 1888. [How very timely of you, sir!]

Okay - so the real anachronism (now that I've bothered myself to look back through the thread) lies in the origin of the 'Eight little whores' theme being 20th century, and the 'hoaxer' using it in a journal supposedly written in 1888/89.

So it is that which we therefore require some evidence for. In the journal, the much-maligned Maybrick is said to have written 'One dirty whore was looking ...' (etc.). This does mirror the 'Eight little whores' line of 1959, or whenever (but obviously not 1900 or before according to Captain Nayname). Is there any evidence that a counting rhyme of this nature existed pre-1900? This is obviously critical and requires really solid background analysis, so please bear with as this could take me some time ...

Tick, tick, tick, and a click, click, click ...

Oh dear, this is looking ominous. Seven and a half seconds of intensive research on Wiki by your fearless author has thrown up this little gem:

The original piece, then called "Ten Little Injuns", was written by songwriter Septimus Winner in 1868 for a minstrel show and was much more elaborate:
Ten little Injuns standin' in a line
One toddled home and then there were nine.

That wasn't what we were expecting.

As they are saying quite a bit in Munich right now ...

"... went to mow a meadow!"

Sorry for being so late this post, but found something interesting about counting songs which I wanted on public record.

The counting song "10 Green Bottles", one of the most famous of all counting songs has roots in the 1830's and could actaully be even older....

" Like many folk songs, the origin of "Ten Green Bottles" is lost to antiquity. It is believed to be of English, more specifically of Yorkshire origin, although one suggestion is that greenbottles refers to officers of the Metropolitan Police, apparently underworld jargon for the new force founded by Act of Parliament in 1829. This could explain why the bottles were said to be hanging on the wall rather than sitting on it. This explanation sounds plausible, but in September 1998, a French academic found a fragment of a manuscript, apparently dating from the late 14th Century, which appears to be the earliest extant version. It runs:

Syxthene boetell gryne
Yhangen, Yhangen
Yhangen, Yhangen
Syxthene boetell gryne
Doonfal won
Syxthene boetell gryne
Yhangen, Yhangen
An... "

https://www.songfacts.com/facts/traditional/ten-green-bottles

[Livia]

Hi Carol,

Don't be afraid to post. Even if you can't prove it,
you're still entitled to an opinion. But I understand
your reluctance. Look how long I've been a member,
both here and the earlier version and my post
count is still relatively low.

I've been thinking about the provenance lately. Caz
mentioned something about the diary having been
written for entertainment.

About a month or so ago, I was looking at records
pertaining to William Graham sr (Billy's father, Anne's
grandfather.) William Graham married Rebecca Jones
in the summer of 1911, although they had been living
together for several years. Rebecca's first husband was
John Jones according to the 1901 census and
a baptismal record of one of their children. His
occupation is listed as comedian/music hall
artist. Unfortunately, Mr Jones appears to have
died c. 1905, and didn't make the 1911 census.
I have been unable to locate a marriage
register for John and Rebecca to have a look
at his handwriting. And although there's nothing
comedic about the contents of the diary, didn't
music halls also stage melodramas?

I know Anne Graham suspected that Alice Yapp
might have removed the diary from Battlecrease
and given it to her friend Elizabeth Formby, (the
mother of William Graham's second wife, Edith
Formby) but that seems so out of character for
a woman so enamored of the Maybricks and
so hateful towards Florence, to the point that
she nearly got her hung.

Here's the Jones family in 1901:



last family on the page.

Liv