One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary

[caz]

Actually speaking of 20 years... What has the diary ever added to the historical research of the Whitechapel murders?

Zero. Absolutely nothing.

Well we got the Casebook out of it for a start, Batman, which has attracted many eager researchers over the years, who between them have produced a wealth of information on the subject as a whole.

Love,

Caz
X

[MayBea]

Both of the main Ripper sites were started because of the Diary.

I can also say that I found out the identity of the City Missionary from the press reports by working from the Maybrick premise. I had a Spitalfields marriage certificate of the daughter of the servant of another Liverpool cotton merchant with Charles Pateman's name on it with 'curate' next to it.

That of course, doesn't prove anything. But I don't see why the onus is on the yay-side to prove anything as opposed to the nay-side.

The people who should prove their position are the people who claim their position is proven. It's not enough to provide evidence that is probably right. It has to be "incontrovertible, unequivocal and undeniable".

[Spider]

Maybrick's movements are fairly well documented, at least enough that he could easily have been proven to be elsewhere during the canonical murders. So far, that has not been the case.

As I suspected, there are no insurmountable timeline problems so far. I'm sure they would have been routed out by now. Thanks.

[Spider]

Did Maybrick also possess the gift of being able to foresee the future? He refers throughout the Diary to his wife Florence and her lover as 'the whore' and 'the whoremaster'.
This undoubtedly refers to an affair between Florence and Alfred Brierley. However this affair didn't commence until March 1889 and lasted a matter of weeks.
In my opinion the author of the Journal read a lot about Florence Maybrick and made an error in his dates.

As Maybrick does not put a name to Florrie's suitor it would be pure assumption to assume it is referencing Brierly from the start.
The first paragraph of the diary states "I long for peace of mind but I sincerely believe that that will not come until I have sought my revenge on the whore and the whore master"
And in the second paragraph "Foolish bitch, I know for certain she has arranged a rondaveau with him in Whitechapel"

It is not until the fifth page where we learn that "Summer is near the warm weather will do me good"

As Caz says, shortly before Christmas 1888, according to the diary, Maybrick states "The bitch, the whore is not satisfied with one whore master, she now has eyes on another".

Clearly there are two separate suitors involved with Florrie, and they are certainly a few months apart, the earlier one seemingly would not likely be Brierley.
Maybrick certainly doesn't foresee the future, he writes in his present.

[Spider]

Actually speaking of 20 years... What has the diary ever added to the historical research of the Whitechapel murders?

Zero. Absolutely nothing.

Just out of interest, do you have a copy of the diary and have you actually read the diary?

Regards

[Scott Nelson]

Both of the main Ripper sites were started because of the Diary.

This one was. The Forums site despised the Diary.

[Batman]

Just out of interest, do you have a copy of the diary and have you actually read the diary?

Regards

I will be honest. I have two copies throughout the years. The first I got when I was in my late teens. I picked it up on sale. The second over a decade later when it had some blurb on the cover about the latest updates etc.

In a sense I was mislead over The Whitechapel Murders because these were popular suspect books as opposed to a history of the events. In essense I never really learned about The Whitechapel Murders until I turned to Sugden but I had read Fido before him and then Rumbelow and Evans after.

A diary! Why couldn't The Star have come up with that one at the turn of the last century I don't know.

All you need now is a new "Royal JtR Diary!" to appear on the scene and it will knock the Bible and that Little Communist Red Book from the best-sellers forever. Imagine, a diary of Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and Avondal has been recovered with the revelation that he was JtR. Would be gone like hot-cakes.

What Serial Killers keep a diary? lol.

[MayBea]

This one was. The Forums site despised the Diary.

I remember Howard Brown of the Forums saying it was the Diary book that got him started. It might have been on the Ivor Edwards old forum though or on a podcast.

[Spider]

What Serial Killers keep a diary? lol.

1610 – Elizabeth Bathory – Csejte, Kingdom of Hungary
1676 – Marquise de Brinvilliers – Paris, France
1889 – Sophie von Mesko – Lipes, Hungary
1893 – “Kuttenberg Baby-Killers” – Bohemia (Czech, Austrian Empire)
1926 – Josefa Szanyi (Josephine Tsany) – Budapest, Hungary
1996 – Lyudmila Spesivtseva – Novosibirsk, Siberia
1998 – Sante Kimes – New York, Bahamas, California
2001 – Kathleen Megan Folbigg – Mayfield, NSW, Australia
Joseph Naso – Alphabet/Double Initial Killer
Jason Massey
Westley Allen Dodd

A quick look on the tinternet - All the above did.

[GUT]

1610 – Elizabeth Bathory – Csejte, Kingdom of Hungary
1676 – Marquise de Brinvilliers – Paris, France
1889 – Sophie von Mesko – Lipes, Hungary
1893 – “Kuttenberg Baby-Killers” – Bohemia (Czech, Austrian Empire)
1926 – Josefa Szanyi (Josephine Tsany) – Budapest, Hungary
1996 – Lyudmila Spesivtseva – Novosibirsk, Siberia
1998 – Sante Kimes – New York, Bahamas, California
2001 – Kathleen Megan Folbigg – Mayfield, NSW, Australia
Joseph Naso – Alphabet/Double Initial Killer
Jason Massey
Westley Allen Dodd

A quick look on the tinternet - All the above did.

Kathleen Folbigg was not from Mayfield and in all possibility not a Serial Killer of any description and if so certainly didn't keep a diary describing her killings.

[Pcdunn]

Well, I finished this thread last night, and have enjoyed it and learned a good deal. I remember when the Maybrick Diary news hit, and how soon it was retracted, and hadn't really thought much about it since. I saw another poster elsewhere at Casebook say he or she was reconsidering the value of the Diary, so decided to start reading the Maybrick threads.

I'm now intrigued by the idea that it could possibly be an older hoax. After looking up a few clues left in this thread, though, I think the old scrapbook may not be Maybrick's diary, nor Jack's-- but perhaps nobody's diary.

[caz]

Well it may just as well be the diary of a nobody, Pcdunn, since I doubt the handwriting will be positively identified in the next 25, or even 125 years.

Love,

Caz
X

[Spider]

Kathleen Folbigg was not from Mayfield and in all possibility not a Serial Killer of any description and if so certainly didn't keep a diary describing her killings.

Well according to sources on the internet, she did keep a diary and is doing time for the murder of more than one of her children which qualifies her as a serial killer who kept a diary. Whether she is guilty or not would be down to the court. Where she lived is not important for the purpose of my reply to a previous post.

The point is that many serial killers do keep diaries in answer to the aforementioned post.

Regards

[MayBea]

Serial Killer who wrote diaries:

1610 – Elizabeth Bathory – Csejte, Kingdom of Hungary
1676 – Marquise de Brinvilliers – Paris, France
1889 – Sophie von Mesko – Lipes, Hungary
1893 – “Kuttenberg Baby-Killers” – Bohemia (Czech, Austrian Empire)
1926 – Josefa Szanyi (Josephine Tsany) – Budapest, Hungary
1996 – Lyudmila Spesivtseva – Novosibirsk, Siberia
1998 – Sante Kimes – New York, Bahamas, California
2001 – Kathleen Megan Folbigg – Mayfield, NSW, Australia
Joseph Naso – Alphabet/Double Initial Killer
Jason Massey
Westley Allen Dodd

Jack Unterweger, the Vienna Strangler, he of the multiple handwriting and the melodramatic writing style, wrote a bestselling memoir. Fegefeuer "Purgatory".

[MayBea]

Admittedly, like Unterweger's, the Diaries are usually jailhouse Diaries, or else they're written by women or young men in their teens.

The Maybrick Diary would be unusual in that sense.

However, serial killers, mass murderers and bombers have been known to write poetry and manifestos, and Jack the Ripper did cross criminal profile boundaries into spree killing and possibly terrorism. So I think it's a logical fit.