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One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary

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  • Originally posted by Stewart P Evans View Post
    From Nuttall's Standard Dictionary, London, 1887 -

    Frequent, a., repeated often; repeating often; full; crowded (L. frequens). Frequently, ad. often; commonly. Frequentness, s. the quality of being frequent.
    Frequent, v.a. to resort to often.
    Frequentage, s., practice of frequenting.
    Frequentation, s., the habit of visiting often.
    Frequentative, a. or s. a term applied to verbs signifying the frequent repetition of an action [Gram.]
    Frequenter, s. one who often visits.
    Thanks, Stewart

    Anybody who thinks someone can frequent somewhere once doesn't understand the English Language.
    allisvanityandvexationofspirit

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Stephen Thomas View Post
      Anybody who thinks someone can frequent somewhere once doesn't understand the English Language.
      From the British Library online:
      Hitherto John Evelyn has principally been known from his Diary. The Archive allows him to be seen in his true milieu, that of the community of seventeenth century intellectuals ... He emerges as this community's most long-lived and versatile member: scholar, connoisseur, bibliophile and horticulturalist, as well as a writer and thinker of sometimes startlingly current relevance, on everything from forestry, architecture and the formation of a universal library to fashion and air pollution.
      http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/featu...elynnotes.html

      In the French dictionary, the French word frequent is defined as hanter or haunt. The sample sentence is:

      Cette stratégie hautement risquée reviendra tôt ou tard hanter l'Europe.

      This highly risky strategy will come back to haunt Europe in the short or the long term.

      That means haunt/frequent periodically over an undefined period, and that would be one period

      http://en.bab.la/dictionary/french-english/hanter

      Comment


      • Hi all,the use of the word frequent is the least of the problems that the diary suffers from.
        Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth

        Comment


        • Frequent is either an irrelevant argument or else it supports the Diary being an old document.

          Who else but a Victorian or pre-Victorian know how to use frequent properly, or acceptably, for a "one-time" event in this manner, as it appears to do?

          Comment


          • For those who still think the usage of the word frequent is a problem:

            Here is an example of frequent used for a one-time event, in a biography of Samuel Wesley by Methodist historian, Luke Tyerman (1820-1889).

            ...he frequented a blind alley on the 30th of January...

            http://books.google.ca/books?id=KzsB...0dafoe&f=false

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              Many thanks for the kind words, Caz. You're usually super smart too.
              True, because I was too mean to buy the original. That said, I'm fairly sure that the gremlins in the cheapo transcript don't materially alter those specific aspects of the text about which my observations were made.
              Hi Sam,

              Apologies for the late reply.

              You are probably right. It's just that in academic terms (if you can even discuss the diary in such a context ) it would get off on a technicality - an unfair trial of the unknown author if you will.

              Poor creative writing in and of itself tells us nothing concrete about its date of origin. There seems to be a misconception that nobody educated before, say, the 1950s, could have made the kind of mistakes that appear in the diary - and even that presumes those mistakes were accidental. It is virtually impossible to conclude anything about the writer's normal language skills if we presume he/she was deliberately writing as someone else entirely - an invented version of the indifferently educated Maybrick, as a serial mutilator no less. There is nothing and nobody to use for comparison purposes. It's like reading a Goon Show script and trying to judge Spike Milligan's writing skills by what Eccles says.

              Ironically, we could only judge the author's degree of literacy with any accuracy if the thing were genuinely by Maybrick.

              Love,

              Caz
              X
              Last edited by caz; 02-25-2014, 08:34 AM.
              "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


              Comment


              • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                The noun "to frequent" is from the French frequenter, meaning 'to attend'.
                What's the big deal?

                Graham
                Hi Graham,

                I think it's because 'frequent' is generally used today as an adjective meaning 'often', and therefore "I frequented my club" sounds so pretentious to modern ears and not quite 'right' when talking about one specific occasion.

                Mind you, the diary author portrayed Maybrick as someone who saw fit to quote Crashaw (c.1613-1649), so that fits fairly neatly with this old-fashioned use of "to frequent", meaning simply to attend (assuming this was ever a correct usage. My Chambers doesn't include it at all).

                Doesn't tell us a sodding thing about when the words were written though.

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                Last edited by caz; 02-25-2014, 09:01 AM.
                "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                Comment


                • Originally posted by MayBea View Post
                  For those who still think the usage of the word frequent is a problem:

                  Here is an example of frequent used for a one-time event, in a biography of Samuel Wesley by Methodist historian, Luke Tyerman (1820-1889).

                  ...he frequented a blind alley on the 30th of January...

                  http://books.google.ca/books?id=KzsB...0dafoe&f=false
                  Hi MayBea,

                  All I think your examples really show is that even supposedly highly educated writers and historians can be guilty of occasionally misusing or mangling their first language.

                  Or perhaps Wesley went down this blind alley several times on 30th Jan...

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                  Comment


                  • Altogether, I found three examples that were from journals or diaries where I would think the language leeway would be even greater than in poetry. (Google Books)

                    I didn't expect to find it in a non-Diary but there it was in a biography.
                    Originally posted by caz View Post
                    Or perhaps Wesley went down this blind alley several times on 30th Jan...
                    Actually, the Calveshead Club had its meetings every 30th of January and this meeting was in the alley.

                    http://books.google.ca/books?id=KzsB...0alley&f=false

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                      The noun "to frequent" is from the French frequenter, meaning 'to attend'.
                      What's the big deal?
                      Hello Graham,

                      The OED gives the French etymology (although I'd argue that fréquenter, itself, doesn't simply mean "to attend"), and defines the verb frequent thus: "To visit or make use of (a place) often; to resort to habitually; to attend (a meeting, etc.)."

                      Note that the "attend (a meeting)" definition comes third in that list. The more common usage of frequent is by far is in the first two senses, namely often or habitual attendance. This, in turn, implies attendance over a period of time, rather than in the sense of "I popped into my club today", which is how it comes across in the Diary.

                      Incidentally, none of the example uses given in the OED, from 1555 through to 1860, show frequent being used the sense of attendance one a one-off (oops!) basis. They all refer to regular attendance over time.
                      Last edited by Sam Flynn; 02-25-2014, 11:13 AM. Reason: Sorting out me italics
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • Frequent

                        A simple browse of the British Library newspaper digital search facility using the word "frequent" for the years 1888-1890 will show that the word was used as I showed in my 1887 dictionary definition, i.e. to visit etc. frequently or often. What a pointless debate this is.
                        SPE

                        Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          The OED gives the French etymology (although I'd argue that fréquenter, itself, doesn't simply mean "to attend"), and defines the verb frequent thus: "To visit or make use of (a place) often; to resort to habitually; to attend (a meeting, etc.)."
                          So the 'attend' definition was there the whole time. Bold mine.

                          I agree with Stewart; it's a pointless debate (I would say pointless argument) but the hoax theorists brought it up.

                          This is very similar to debate about the word 'preserved' as used by Roslyn D'Onston (may I ask that the letter be preserved), the same day as the From Hell letter, and how often the word is used that way. Someone will chime in with thousands of examples of 'preserved' being used--of course they are examples of preserving preserves.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MayBea View Post
                            I agree with Stewart; it's a pointless debate (I would say pointless argument) but the hoax theorists brought it up.
                            I don't think it's completely pointless, MayBea, when the inappropriate usage of a word or phrase might indicate something about its author.
                            This is very similar to debate about the word 'preserved' as used by Roslyn D'Onston
                            It's not quite the same. The point with the Diary is that there are many examples if inappropriate, incorrect or incompetent uses of words and phrases - "frequented my club" is but one instance among many. Taken together, these inappropriate usages indicate to me the author/s attempts to write in a (modestly) sophisticated style with which they are clearly unfamiliar.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              ...It's not quite the same. The point with the Diary is that there are many examples if inappropriate, incorrect or incompetent uses of words and phrases - "frequented my club" is but one instance among many...
                              In the D'Onston debate about 'preserved', some believe it's quite a coincidence that it came the same day as the From Hell 'presarved', because it not that often you say, "preserve a letter", but other say it's not a coincidence because people use the word preserved commonly.

                              Here, they're saying frequent is used incorrectly, and using all the many examples of its primary and predominant usage. It's the same argument. Look at how many times it's used this way, or look how many times it's used the other way.

                              But I agree that it tells us a lot about the author. The two examples I found and linked were both religious men, one from Surrey and one from Yorkshire.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MayBea View Post
                                In the D'Onston debate about 'preserved', some believe it's quite a coincidence that it came the same day as the From Hell 'presarved', because it not that often you say, "preserve a letter", but other say it's not a coincidence because people use the word preserved commonly.

                                Here, they're saying frequent is used incorrectly, and using all the many examples of its primary and predominant usage. It's the same argument. Look at how many times it's used this way, or look how many times it's used the other way.

                                But I agree that it tells us a lot about the author. The two examples I found and linked were both religious men, one from Surrey and one from Yorkshire.
                                I went back to an alehouse I used to frequent, and I told the landlady me money was spent...

                                Sorry, but this is the only acceptable usage of the verb 'to frequent'. End of argument.

                                Mike
                                huh?

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