One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary

[The Rookie Detective]

The issue is definitely not that James Maybrick's 'k' was so idiosyncratic that absolutely no-one else on the planet wrote them in a similar vein, the issue is absolutely that whoever sketched James Maybrick's signature into the back of his watch did so with remarkable felicitousness given the multitude of examples of his signature we now possess.

This begs the obvious question: If it was etched there by a malicious hoaxer, how on earth - in 1993 or earlier - did they know how to replicate Maybrick's hand?

Edit: Or are we arguing that Maybrick's 'k' is so common (across the centuries, perhaps) that it was pretty much inevitable that a hoaxer would choose to etch it as they did?

Excellent point


I personally believe the watch is authentic and genuine, but that it wasn't JM that had the watch engraved.

There's one Engraver who I know of who had a fanatical obsession with the Ripper case; Albert Bachert.

That said, JM's theatrical brother is more likely to have been the man who had the watch engraved, to also put his brother into a spotlight.

I also believe that the best way to get through to James as the potential Ripper, is to go through his brother first.


Of course, by saying the watch is authentic, it then makes the diary one hell of a coincidence.

The strongest argument for James Maybrick being the Ripper isn't through the book; it's through the watch!

The trouble is, metaphorically speaking; those who believe that James was the Ripper, believe the best way to get into space is to fly the rocket straight up...whereas physics dictates that you need to fly the rocket in an arched trajectory in order to get the best chance of a positive result.

On that basis, I find the watch is grossly undervalued.

Think of JM as the diary
And his brother as the watch.

It might just strengthen the case for JM having been the Ripper.


RD

[Scott Nelson]

JM's theatrical brother is more likely to have been the man who had the watch engraved, to also put his brother into a spotlight.

I also believe that the best way to get through to James as the potential Ripper, is to go through his brother first.

Well, Michael was a writer. Maybe he was utilized as a co-hoaxer to hide a diary in Battlecrease house or someplace associated with his brother.

But the handwritten photo-album with its references to 'Abberline' is a modern invention. Abberline, the policeman, was (almost) publicly unknown in Maybrick's time. Abberline wasn't made into the villain chasing Maybrick until after 1988.

[erobitha]

The reason why I ask is because the 2 examples I have submitted aren't from the same man.


RD

Where did I say I thought the examples you gave were from the same man?

Your first example is not the same as Maybrick's. I felt that was already evident, despite your desire to make your point. It clearly is a completely different K.

I simply agreed that i believe the watch is conclusive proof. I have provided ample proof of it being so.

[erobitha]

Well, Michael was a writer. Maybe he was utilized as a co-hoaxer to hide a diary in Battlecrease house or someplace associated with his brother.

But the handwritten photo-album with its references to 'Abberline' is a modern invention. Abberline, the policeman, was (almost) publicly unknown in Maybrick's time. Abberline wasn't made into the villain chasing Maybrick until after 1988.

Hi Scott, Abberline was not exactly a mega celebrity of the Victorian era, but then, which police officials were?

However, Abberline's name appears in the press of the time on quite a considerable basis for many cases, including that of the Ripper. Anyone reading the papers might have had a sense of his role in the case.

I accept your point about Abberline becoming more well-known in modern times due to things like Michael Caine's mini-series, but it would not be accurate to say that his name could not have been gleaned from press reports of the time.

[Tab]

Edit: Or are we arguing that Maybrick's 'k' is so common (across the centuries, perhaps) that it was pretty much inevitable that a hoaxer would choose to etch it as they did?

I'd argue this (with absolutely no real evidence to back it up mind you). A would say a looped lower case "k" is ubiquitous, with the additional loop on the ascender the inevitable result of cursive writing. If I were to write the name Maybrick on paper to diligently copy in to the casing of a watch, my "k" would be identical. But I am special after all, so make of that what you will.

Tab

[The Rookie Detective]

Where did I say I thought the examples you gave were from the same man?

Your first example is not the same as Maybrick's. I felt that was already evident, despite your desire to make your point. It clearly is a completely different K.

I simply agreed that i believe the watch is conclusive proof. I have provided ample proof of it being so.

Ah, you missed my point

I never said you personally thought the examples were from the same man.

I was speaking in general terms and trying to highlight that using handwriting as evidence amounts to folly.

There are so many examples of similar handwriting and so I was trying to suggest that the argument surrounding the "Maybrick K" is pointless.

My argument both supports and rejects the idea of the Maybrick K at the same time and comes from a place of objectivity.

I may have failed to explain myself previously, but that's more a case of my lack of grammatical versatility, rather than the fault of anyone else.

I apologize to you if you perhaps believed I trying to somehow trick you in some way, because that was never my intention.

I have far too much respect and admiration for you and others to even consider contemplating causing any intended offense.

Kindest regards


RD

[rjpalmer]

Marilyn vos Savant (with an IQ of 228 you’ve got to think Fate knew what it was doing when it chose her surname) was a university-dropout who just happened to have a rather sharp mind.

Was it fate or Parade magazine that chose that surname, Ike?

Good lord...

...but welcome back.

[Iconoclast]

Was it fate or Parade magazine that chose that surname, Ike?

Good lord...

...but welcome back.

Okay, if Parade magazine persuaded her that Marilyn vos Savant (her mother's maiden name) was a catchier name than Marilyn Mach (her father's name and her actual surname) then surely we should be struck by the thought that Fate had an inkling as to what was coming when It gave her mother her surname long before Marilyn was even thought of?

It's nice to be back. I'd hate to think Lord Orsam was struggling for articles on his blog without me. Imagine what mastery of statistics we can look forward to from him as he attempts to prove that vos Savant-Mach was wrong all along???

I can't wait ...

[Iconoclast]

I'd argue this (with absolutely no real evidence to back it up mind you). A would say a looped lower case "k" is ubiquitous, with the additional loop on the ascender the inevitable result of cursive writing. If I were to write the name Maybrick on paper to diligently copy in to the casing of a watch, my "k" would be identical. But I am special after all, so make of that what you will.

Tab

Hi Tab,

Well, I might suggest that the fact that you are 'special' makes you the exception to the rule rather than the rule, yes?

It's nice to be special, of course. I should know ...

Ike

[Iconoclast]

I was speaking in general terms and trying to highlight that using handwriting as evidence amounts to folly.

And there, it would seem, we have it.

The handwriting in the scrapbook which does not look like any of Maybrick's public handwriting leads us to folly if we pursued it as a criticism of the scrapbook's authenticity. I couldn't agree more, RD!

What we need is an example of James Maybrick's private scribbling for his own eyes only. Or - more to the point - another example of his private scribbling for his own eyes only ...

[rjpalmer]

Okay, if Parade magazine persuaded her that Marilyn vos Savant (her mother's maiden name) was a catchier name than Marilyn Mach (her father's name and her actual surname) then surely we should be struck by the thought that Fate had an inkling as to what was coming when It gave her mother her surname long before Marilyn was even thought of?

To be pedantic, her mother's maiden name appears to have been Savant-Ros, inherited from the grandfather, Giuseppe Savant-Ros.

If women were supposed to take the surname of their mother, as Marilyn claimed in justifying her nom de plume, her mother didn't follow the tradition, so the pen name is somewhat contrived. (And in Italian the word for wise is "sapiente").

Still, I suppose one can't blame her. Marilyn Mach doesn't quite have the same ring, does it?

Mach brings to mind Machiavelli---a name more suitable for an 'Ask Marilyn' advice column with particularly nasty advice. I don't remember Parade having such a thing.

[Iconoclast]

(And in Italian the word for wise is "sapiente").

Oh Lord, I can see the title of his blog now ...

Sapienteing My Strength

[rjpalmer]

Parade, for those in the UK that might not know, was a glossy, weekly tabloid that was sometimes given away free with newspaper subscriptions, filled with chit-chat and public interest stories.

It wasn't too different from the magazines that the diary's discoverer and chief promoter, Michael John Barrett, wrote for in the 1980s, before alcoholism, kidney disease, and stroke took their toll, forcing him to seek more imaginative means of securing an income.

[Iconoclast]

It wasn't too different from the magazines that the diary's discoverer and chief promoter, Michael John Barrett, wrote for in the 1980s, before alcoholism, kidney disease, and stroke took their toll, forcing him to seek more imaginative means of securing an income.

The alcoholism we can all sign up to - the evidence was clear two years AFTER he brought the scrapbook to market so no arguments there (though I'm not sure what evidence there was from the late 1980s and early 1990s other than possibly a throwaway remark from his wife?).

But the stroke? He only claimed it, yes? We know that his GP (Dr Khan) inexplicably failed to mention any stroke when Barrett agreed to the good doctor sharing Barrett's medical records. Strange but true.

And the kidney issues he experienced were - IIRC - caused by a serious accident as a child? They don't appear to have stopped him in his tracks as he reached out year after year in the mid-1980s for his Pulitzer Prize chit-chat with minor celebs.

It seems to me that no health-related issues took their toll on his ability to write (!) from the late 1980s onwards. The evidence simply suggests that he either gave it up as the dead loss that it patently was or that editors sussed him out and stopped publishing any of his hard-hitting material in their gentle rags.

Honestly, I think you might just have over-played your hand a wee bit there, RJ, but I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

[rjpalmer]

or that editors sussed him out and stopped publishing any of his hard-hitting material in their gentle rags.

Sussed him out? What fiction is this?

The chief vehicle of Barrett's articles, Celebrity, ceased publication in the late 1980s. Barrett was still writing for them when they closed down, and the editor later characterized Barrett as a very 'reliable' contributor.

There was no "sussing out" or rejection of his services. Please refrain from inventing things from thin air.

As your good friend Lord Orsam suggested, it was the collapse of Celebrity that forced Barrett to look for other outlets for his creative juices.

In brief, an income.

I, of course, have no problem with Barrett being a more capable writer than what the diary friendly crowd like to portray.

My point about his health problems goes more to the tendency of the diary crowd to point to Mike's woeful state in 1995--when he was at the depth of his alcoholism--as evidence of what he was supposedly like in 1991-1992.

To that, I call foul.

Have a good afternoon.