One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary

[Soothsayer]

Hi Soothsayer

What's to stop a circa 1988 forger having noticed the supposed FM in the Rumbelow pic? That's the limpest killer blow I ever saw.

Some people say they can't see it but I can see it quite clearly.

Well, Stephen Thomas, Fearless Crusader - you are quite right, there is nothing whatsoever to have stopped a forger from having done so.

That is the flipside to the journal-as-genuine argument, and indeed the only flipside because the letters are there (you yourself admit to seeing them 'quite clearly', which qualifies you for the Soothsayer Fearless Crusader Medal, incidentally). As the letters are there, the journal (within reason) is either genuine or a forgery which was prompted by the forger first spotting the letters. It's not a killer blow - whether you imagine limp or not. It's simply the other possibility.

Some relevant points at this juncture:

1) No-one had ever identified what the letters were before (though researcher Simon Wood had mentioned them to Paul Begg around 1988) so the forger is first to do so. From this, he or she has to work backwards to think of Florence Maybrick, and therefore James Maybrick. Yep, a respectable Liverpool cotton merchant with no criminal record. Hmmm ... hardly an obvious choice for a forger. (For the record, Simon Wood can no longer see those letters he first saw in 1988 as they have been smudged by the thousands of people who have been able to see them since.)

2) Our forger has more good fortune in the writing of this journal than is realistically possible outside of a philanthropic casino. Everything just keeps working for him. Maybrick just keeps fitting the known evidence. His wife even writes a letter which the forger can refer to in the journal. An actual Ripper letter to (of all newspapers) the Liverpool Echo attempts to prove it is from the genuine Jack by referring to DIEGO LAURENZ (for the uninitiated, Diego is Spanish for James, and Laurenz sounds like Florence). Impossibly good fortune! There's more, but it's all been said so many times on this site that you would need to read back to review it all.

3) The forger's material work - the ink, the scrapbook - has never been 'outed'. "We just can't shake it" said Keith Skinner in the early 1990s; and nothing has changed. No surprise, really, as we can't shake the truth unless we turn it upside down and simply say it's a lie.

Guys, I have an endless supply of Soothsayer Fearless Crusader Medals - you can all have one if you get out of the long grass and join the fight!

[Soothsayer]

Insults aside, Soothsayer, the fact remains that the majority cannot see the letters, and that includes the police who actually saw the wall. Therefore for you to insult anyone who does not see the letters makes your case look ridiculous.

Christine, you must be a genuine Johnny-Come-Lately on this site if you dare to highlight a bit of good-natured banter as insults.

Read the real vitriol - anyone daring to suggest the journal may be genuine has buckets of it coming to them! And from all quarters! Personally, I love it - I collect it up and sell it on to sadomasocists (and teachers).

And while you're at it, try showing the world any evidence at all for any other Ripper suspect. Anything - but it mustn't simply be some half-cocked theory based upon the fact that Bob Hughes was once on a Whitechapel census and probably had a bad temper, etc..

For all the criticisms of the journal, at least it provides something concrete to analyse!

[Graham]

Hi Sooth,

Let's get the really nasty stuff out of the way first. As a Villa fan, all I can say is that Newcastle are a really duff side - Duff - geddit? Nah? Ah well...they need a season in the Chumpionship to sort themselves out - all they need is a new board of directors, a new manager and a new team. Oh, and to put Mr Barton on the first bus out of Toon. Take heart - I followed the Villa all through the old second and third divs and back up again. But they did have Tommy Docherty to help them.

As for the Diary...well, all I can say is that I'm surprised John Omlor hasn't made a contribution to this thread. Unless he's called it a day and sees no reason for further input. The Diary may have stood a half-way decent chance of more serious recognition had not Messrs Barrett and Feldman got hold of it. Between them they destroyed what bit of credibility it may have had - Barrett because of...well, because of Barrett and Feldman because he was so bloody enthusiastic. But you're right when you say it's never been outed, but the flip-side is that it's never been inned, either. Know what I mean?

What letters? What wall?

Graham

[Soothsayer]

Sooth,

I am Aston born and bred. I know every brick in Trinity Road. Desperate sorry...

Graham

Damn you, sir!

PS And don't think I've forgotten the 1905 FA Cup Final!

[Graham]

PS And don't think I've forgotten the 1905 FA Cup Final!

You weren't there, were you?

Graham

[Soothsayer]

Hi Sooth,

Let's get the really nasty stuff out of the way first. As a Villa fan, all I can say is that Newcastle are a really duff side - Duff - geddit? Nah? Ah well...they need a season in the Chumpionship to sort themselves out - all they need is a new board of directors, a new manager and a new team. Oh, and to put Mr Barton on the first bus out of Toon. Take heart - I followed the Villa all through the old second and third divs and back up again. But they did have Tommy Docherty to help them.

As for the Diary...well, all I can say is that I'm surprised John Omlor hasn't made a contribution to this thread. Unless he's called it a day and sees no reason for further input. The Diary may have stood a half-way decent chance of more serious recognition had not Messrs Barrett and Feldman got hold of it. Between them they destroyed what bit of credibility it may have had - Barrett because of...well, because of Barrett and Feldman because he was so bloody enthusiastic. But you're right when you say it's never been outed, but the flip-side is that it's never been inned, either. Know what I mean?

What letters? What wall?

Graham

Your timing was impeccable - I'd literally just posted my last insult when up popped your latest!

If you followed Villa in the old 3rd Division (c1970, 1971?), you must have been a child of the 1950s (?) - when centre-forwards were allowed to crack goalkeeper's heads before scoring a brace to win the Coop! And I'm not referring to Nat Lofthouse a year later!

It was pretty bad news on Sunday, made even worse when Duff pledged his future to us ...

[Graham]

The name of Peter McParland is still revered here in Brum...

Graham

[Soothsayer]

Hi Sooth,
Let's get the really nasty stuff out of the way first.
Graham

PS Try typing 'James Maybrick' into Google and select Images. If you look through them all, you'll find one of Alan Shearer under the bizarre claim that he is coming out of retirement to sign for Crystal Palace next season.

I kid ye not!

(I was looking to verify the claim that the photo comparing the Oct 6 1888 photofit was actually Michael Maybrick rather than James Maybrick, if you're wondering, which you probably weren't but I've typed this now so I may as well leave it in.)

[Soothsayer]

The name of Peter McParland is still revered here in Brum...

Graham

Well, you'd be rightly scared not to!

That DVD should have come with a violence warning ...

[Ally]

Originally Posted by Soothsayer View Post
Obviously, the numero uno reason for believing in the authenticity of the journal is the combination of ‘F’ and ‘M’ on Kelly’s wall – referred to in the journal,

Let's not let the facts get in the way of our beliefs here. Where precisely in the diary does it say there is an FM on the wall? Oh wait that's right, it doesn't. But again let's not let those pesky facts interrupt a nice fanciful flight of the imagination.

[Soothsayer]

As for the Diary...well, all I can say is that I'm surprised John Omlor hasn't made a contribution to this thread.

Remember, Grahamster, he said some time ago that the thread was mine. He knows I'm cleverer than he is and he had to give up before my clinical mind stripped him of any more dignity.

I had hoped to provoke him with my 'evil Omlorians' line, but to no effect.

Still, we live in hope: the vitriol I can sell once he gets going keeps me in soft nougat bars for a month at a time! (The white and pink ones.)

[Soothsayer]

Let's not let the facts get in the way of our beliefs here. Where precisely in the diary does it say there is an FM on the wall? Oh wait that's right, it doesn't. But again let's not let those pesky facts interrupt a nice fanciful flight of the imagination.

Damn - it's trigger finger disease! I just wrote a long and brilliantly witty response and it hasn't posted.

(If it ever does post, don't read it as brilliant wit ages quickly.)

The gist of my response was the journal makes a clear reference to 'FM' when it states "An initial here, an initial there, will tell of the whoring mother" whilst he was referring to the Kelly murder.

If you want to be pedantic about it, why don't you argue that the author may not be intended to be James Maybrick as the journal never actually comes out and states this?

The original was better (unless it ever posts, of course) ...

[Stephen Thomas]

Well, Stephen Thomas, Fearless Crusader - you are quite right, there is nothing whatsoever to have stopped a forger from having done so.

Glad you agree and I must salute your indefatigability (to coin a phrase).

But I'll stick with the divine Caz's sophistry.

[Soothsayer]

Glad you agree and I must salute your indefatigability (to coin a phrase).

But I'll stick with the divine Caz's sophistry.

If it wasn't for Mrs Soothsayer (and my bad breath), I'd marry that woman ...

[Soothsayer]

I just read through the entire thread and found one instance where you mentioned it at all, when you said:

Which not only does not address the dozens of police officers doctors and jury members who were there specifically to examine the crime scene: It also sounds remarkably like one of those "arguments from personal incredulity" that you come down so hard on. Shame on you, Soothie!

You know, I think I missed this one first time around.

Well researched and well argued young Magpie! You did indeed catch me with my pants down on that one.

Ironic that once again I have been skewered by a 'Magpie' ...