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One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary

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  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Why didn't you have T-shirts made with "Sam Flynn is a complete fvckwit" written on them in big letters?

    One link would have done.
    lol!!!
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
      Firstly, in terms of definitions, from The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1856:

      "IVORY-BLACK....When all the volatile products are separated, the mass which remains in the retort, consists of the earthy and saline portions of the bone, blackened by carbon of the animal matter, and forming what is called ivory-black, bone-black or animal charcoal."

      From Knights' American Mechanical Dictionary, 1876:

      Bone-black is prepared by the distillation of bone in retorts,
      Animal charcoal is another name for bone-black
      Ivory-black is a bone black obtained from cuttings, raspings, dust, and scrapes of ivory.


      So bearing in mind that animal charcoal, bone-black and ivory-black are all essentially the same thing:

      "Pharmacologia" by John Ayrton Paris MD, 1823:

      Under "Medical uses of charcoal":

      "It has been lately asserted to possess powers as an antidote to arsenic; if this be true, its action can only be mechanical by absorbing like a sponge the arsenical solution, and thereby defending the coats of the stomach from its virulence."

      Refers in this context to Lardner's Prepared Charcoal which is said to consist of "cretaceous powder, or chalk finely powdered, rendered gray by the addition of charcoal, or ivory black."

      This is from The Half-Yearly Abstract of the Medical Sciences, Jan-June 1851:

      In the "Transactions of the Medical Society of London" by Dr A.B. Garrod, detailing some experiments in which he employed purified animal charcoal as an antidote. This is prepared from ivory black, by digesting it in dilute chlorohydric acid to remove the earthy matters, afterwards washing it and heating it to redness in a covered crucible.

      Dr Garrod concludes from his experiments:

      1st. That animal charcoal has the power of combining , in the stomach, with the poisonous principles of animal and vegetable substances, and that the compounds thus produced are innoxious, therefore, when given before these poisons have become absorbed, it will act as an antidote.

      2nd. That animal charcoal will absorb some mineral substances, and render them inert; but so large a quantity of the charcoal is required, that it is not so well adapted for many poisons of this class, as their own special antidotes; the effects of arsenic, however, appear to be better combated by this than any other article.
      "

      In "The Elements of Materia Medica and Therapeutics" vol 1 by Jonathan Pereira M.D., 1854 under "poisons and reputed antidotes" one of the antidotes listed for arsenic is "Animal charcoal (purified animal charcoal, common animal charcoal,ivory black)".

      That animal charcoal and bone black was regarded as interchangeable can be seen from this extract from "The Retrospect of Medicine" by W. Braithwaite (ed) 1858:

      "Animal Charcoal an antidote to Vegetable Alkaloids – If to solutions of little poisons of henbane, belladonna, stramonium, or morphia, a little animal charcoal be added, the poison is completely neutralized. This property makes animal charcoal of the greatest use as an antidote to these substances; common black bone will do very well; vegetable charcoal does not possess these properties (Dr A. B. Garrod p.361)"

      A Dictionary of Chemistry and Allied Branches of Other Sciences vol 1, 1870

      "Bone black…removes bitter principles and organic alkaloids from their solutions, and has been recommended as an antidote in case of poisoning by such substances".

      Harper's Magazine vol 43, 1871:

      "A German chemist directs attention to its property of absorbing inorganic bodies also, and suggests that bone-black might occasionally serve as a valuable antidote in cases of poisoning."

      And then:

      "Note-book of Materia Medica" by Dr Angus Macdonald, 1871

      "Animal charcoal is chiefly used as a decolourising agent in pharmacy and the arts, but little as a medicine. But it may be employed in some cases as wood charcoal. It has been recommended as an antidote in poisoning by certain alkaloids, as morphia, strychnia and aconitia; but it is extremely doubtful if it ever does more in such cases than simply entangle, and thus delay the absorption of the poison to a slight extent. "
      Couldnt you have been a bit more thorough David
      Regards

      Herlock






      "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
        Couldnt you have been a bit more thorough David
        I'm not sure about thoroughness, but he could have been more relevant. Few of those references deal with bone-black being an arsenic antidote, and all of the references are very old. There are a number of other issues I might point out with the snippets David posted, but frankly I can't be bothered.

        I might have pointed these out earlier had I read his post more carefully, but all I saw was an avalanche of words, apparently designed to beat me into submission, humiliate me and/or shut me up. This is a tactic I've often seen used elsewhere, but I wasn't expecting it here.

        You live and learn.
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          I'm not sure about thoroughness, but he could have been more relevant. Few of those references deal with bone-black being an arsenic antidote, and all of the references are very old. There are a number of other issues I might point out with the snippets David posted, but frankly I can't be bothered.

          I might have pointed these out earlier had I read his post more carefully, but all I saw was an avalanche of words, apparently designed to beat me into submission, humiliate me and/or shut me up. This is a tactic I've often seen used elsewhere, but I wasn't expecting it here.

          You live and learn.
          Hi Gareth,

          I wasnt applauding anything that i saw as a humiliation i just couldnt help smiling at David’s ....well thoroughness when he gives an answer. I just wouldnt have the committment to go to those lengths.

          If and i suppose its only an ‘if’ bone back was used as an antidote then its surely either remarkable thoroughness on behalf of a forger or extreme luck in selecting a diary/photograph album with bone black in evidence? If its not...well its irrelevant. Where there any other uses for it, say in households?
          Regards

          Herlock






          "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

          Comment


          • I wouldn't necessarily assume 'luck.' Bone black is a pigment, and many of those ingredients listed by Eastaugh are also in powdered inks. I wonder if he considered that? Total guess, but maybe Barrett gets hold of some powdered calligraphy ink, experiments with it on the 'used' pages, and spills some of it in the gutter. The rest is an overactive imagination.

            Comment


            • Surely its not as simple to dismiss as that RJ? Obviously we cant say with certainty that it was bone black but it displayed the properties (enough to make a scientist say that it could have been.) It also appears, from David’s post that bone black was considered at that time to have antidote properties.

              Its yet another ‘what if?’

              If it was proven not to be bone black then end of.

              However, if it was proven to be bone black, then we either have a) a pointer towards the diary being written by a drug user (note that i didnt say Maybrick or Jack ) b) evidence that the forger showed Orsam-like attention to detail in putting bone black into the diary or c) a very lucky forger who chose a journal unaware that it contained bone black.

              Unless there is still some of this powder in the diary and further tests can be done (and im unsure if they would be able to really prove anything) we are left with nothing more than an intriguing detail.
              Regards

              Herlock






              "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                Why didn't you have T-shirts made with "Sam Flynn is a complete fvckwit" written on them in big letters?

                One link would have done.
                Now you know how others feel, Gareth.

                I've beaten David to it and am currently sporting my own T-shirt with "The world's greatest expert on the diary and watch according to David Orsam is a total tit" written on it in big letters. It's a bit on the large side to get all the letters in, but only the first eleven words fit on the front so the last six had to go on the back.

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                Comment


                • Originally posted by caz View Post
                  Now you know how others feel, Gareth.

                  I've beaten David to it and am currently sporting my own T-shirt with "The world's greatest expert on the diary and watch according to David Orsam is a total tit" written on it in big letters. It's a bit on the large side to get all the letters in, but only the first eleven words fit on the front so the last six had to go on the back.

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  Regards

                  Herlock






                  "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                    OK Sam. If I can take just a quick trip into Never-Never Land, and suggest that if old Maybrick was feeling a tad off-colour thanks to his arsenic habit, then perhaps as bone-black was in those days an accepted 'medicine' and household product, and there was some in the kitchen cupboard, he got some down him and spilled it on the Diary as he was writing. Do I believe this? Well......

                    Graham
                    Easier to swallow might be the fact that our hoaxer should have been well aware that "Sir Jim" suffered from serious gastric problems and discomfort, for which he might reasonably have tried a variety of tummy powders and what have you. In early pregnancy I suffered with terrible indigestion and ate Tums like they were sweeties.

                    Alternatively, could bone black have been used by our hoaxer to absorb ink blots?

                    Less easy to explain is what bone black would have been doing in a photo album featuring snaps such as that donkey grinning next to a gravestone.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                      Anyway, it seems strange that if Feldman found this to be exciting evidence he didn't have the black dust analyzed further.
                      Hi rj,

                      I don't think Feldy was ever given access, was he? Probably for the best, I'd have thought.

                      He was also so certain the diary was genuine, that I doubt he'd have seen the point in throwing much of his own money at such an analysis, if even a positive outcome could be explained away easily enough as the work of an enterprising hoaxer.

                      Love,

                      Caz
                      X
                      "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                      Comment


                      • Sorry to see that your account was hacked yesterday by a sulky, petulant child, Sam Flynn, hope you've managed to regain control now.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                          However, if it was proven to be bone black, then we either have a) a pointer towards the diary being written by a drug user (note that i didnt say Maybrick or Jack ) b) evidence that the forger showed Orsam-like attention to detail in putting bone black into the diary or c) a very lucky forger who chose a journal unaware that it contained bone black.
                          That's simply not true though Herlock. There were many other possible uses for bone black, including, as I have said, a supposed cure for indigestion, so it's presence is not in any way a pointer towards the Diary having been written by a drug user, nor does it show that the forger was "lucky" at all. To me it just shows that supporters of the Diary are drawing tenuous connections here.

                          Comment


                          • Herlock, if you imagine the Diarist scribbling madly away while snorting, chewing, or fumbling with his charcoal tablets, you've fallen at the first hurdle. The black powder was not found in the Diary per se, but found in the edges of the cut-out pages, so it must have been associated with those now missing pages. I also suspect that you'll find that the charcoal used to treat indigestion,etc is not made out of animal bones for obvious reasons. Bone char is, however, commonly used as a pigment in inks and paints. It's easier for me to imagine Barrett scraping away at something with his Stanley knife or experimenting with a powdered ink that used bone char as its pigment.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                              That's simply not true though Herlock. There were many other possible uses for bone black, including, as I have said, a supposed cure for indigestion, so it's presence is not in any way a pointer towards the Diary having been written by a drug user, nor does it show that the forger was "lucky" at all. To me it just shows that supporters of the Diary are drawing tenuous connections here.
                              Thank you pointing that out David.

                              I’d have thought though that it shouldn’t be surprising that when a substance which could be used for, amongst other things, an antidote, is found between the pages of a diary purported to have been written by a drug addict then the ‘potential’ link was certain to be pointed out. I wonder how prevalent bone black was in Victorian households?
                              Regards

                              Herlock






                              "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                                I’d have thought though that it shouldn’t be surprising that when a substance which could be used for, amongst other things, an antidote, is found between the pages of a diary purported to have been written by a drug addict then the ‘potential’ link was certain to be pointed out.
                                Well, actually, I would have thought it would be surprising that a drug addict is in possession of an antidote for the drug they are taking because they are presumably taking the drug for pleasure to make them feel better and I would have expected such an antidote to be held by a medical person for use when someone has actually been poisoned.

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