One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary

[andy1867]

You old matchmaker, you! You suckered us both in there with your old sitting-on-the-fence-seeing-both-sides routine. I trust it's going to be a charity website - we wouldn't want you making any money out of old Jack!

Spot on with the "Sitting on the fence" stuff Ike..although I like to see it as being open minded lol
I do sit on the fence...I look at every theory and think,,,,
"ooh thats plausible"
Then someone else posts and points out that its patently ridiculous..and I think...
"ooh..thats patently ridiculous"
I can't help it, cos I don't know enough about it..So I sway backwards and forwards like Boycott facing Holding...
Ive basically no idea...So I simply pratt about on here...finding it fascinating while posting ambiguous rubbish....I reckon there is a book in it though lol

[Iconoclast]

Always very sad when this once Great Thread, the Greatest Thread of All, is reduced to shabby points which "may well point to authenticity".

I say 'shabby' because the solution is simple. The 1957 book, This Friendless Lady, by Nigel Morland, which has long been put forward as one of the forger's sources, states, at page 40:

"Edwin Maybrick, for whom Florence had always held a great regard, returned from the United States after a visit on business lasting since the previous August. He dined with James the following evening..."

Morland's book also tells us that James' pet name for Florence was 'Bunny' and, often overlooked by proponents of the Diary, that Michael wrote lyrics (i.e. page 7 refers to "the strong religious and moral nature of his lyrics"), something which is said by Diary believers to have been an astonishing piece of knowledge for a forger to have acquired.

You have to go and ruin everything with your irritating facts ...

[Iconoclast]

Jack of Hearts would make a great name for a JtR-related dating website!

Alas, though, I'm already happily under the thumb!

Very good - I like it!

I'd sign up too if I wasn't cosied-up with Old Mrs Iconoclast ...

[Mike J. G.]

Bit off-topic temporarily, but is anyone else here a member of the ISF? I know at least one other member here is on there, just wondering how many of us there are.

It's been my intention to start a thread there on JtR, so if I know there'll be a few people participating, I'll do it.

Here's my account over there: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...er.php?u=43050

[Iconoclast]

Bit off-topic temporarily, but is anyone else here a member of the ISF? I know at least one other member here is on there, just wondering how many of us there are.

It's been my intention to start a thread there on JtR, so if I know there'll be a few people participating, I'll do it.

Here's my account over there: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...er.php?u=43050

I ain't no member, sir, and thus your jolly old link didn't work (for me)?

[andy1867]

Be interesting to run an experiment on here wouldn't it?
We write our own Jack the Ripper diary?
starting the day before Tabrams murder and on through to Kelly
See how far any of us would get before someone pulled us up on a fact we had got wrong...
I'll start.....
Dear Diary
6th August 1888
Got up brushed teeth...put knife in black bag, trimmed moustache.. , (face still a little blotchy) left house..

[Mike J. G.]

I ain't no member, sir, and thus your jolly old link didn't work (for me)?

That's strange, it should still work despite you not being a member...

[Iconoclast]

Be interesting to run an experiment on here wouldn't it?
We write our own Jack the Ripper diary?
starting the day before Tabrams murder and on through to Kelly
See how far any of us would get before someone pulled us up on a fact we had got wrong...
I'll start.....
Dear Diary
6th August 1888
Got up brushed teeth...put knife in black bag, trimmed moustache.. , (face still a little blotchy) left house..

Dear Diary
6th August 1888
Got up brushed teeth...put knife in black bag, trimmed moustache.. , (face still a little blotchy) left house..smoking a Marlboro, caught the No. 39 to the O2 Arena listening to Oasis on my iPhone 7+...

Anyone else?

[caz]

You won't find the Poste House in any Gore's directory of 1888, Iconoclast. The excuse I've seen, and a rather weak one at that, is that Maybrick was discussing another Poste house... Y'know, erm, the one in...? Where was it again? There wasn't one in Liverpool, and I should know, lol.

Yes, Mike, you should know, but evidently you don't.

I'm pretty sure that Gore's directory of 1888 will give you the Post Office Tavern in Post Office Place off School Lane, just a stone's throw from Church Alley where Maybrick grew up. At least two local men in recent years and on separate occasions - one a publican himself, the other a local history buff and pub frequenter - would give you this particular drinking establishment - now called the Old Post Office - if you were to ask them about Liverpool's "post house", without even thinking of the "Poste House" in Cumberland Street. Why would they have lied to me or Robert Smith, or been mistaken? The chap I asked (in the terrific Irish American bar on Lime Street) didn't know me from Adam, nor why I was asking.

Mind you, that wouldn't mean anything, because a hoaxer doing his research properly could have learned easily enough that the Poste House in Cumberland Street was a non-starter, or may not even have been thinking of that one, just as our two sources didn't.

Nobody here is daft enough to believe in such a silly thing as a Diary of Jack the Ripper.

Well let's hope they are all attending the Liverpool conference with you to back up your claim.

Well I'll be attending the Marriot hotel Ripper conferences in September in Liverpool if you'd like to come and verify my tracksuit and perm. I'll have a natter with you over a pint, plenty of nice pubs here.

As a sign used to say behind the bar in the Liffey on Renshaw Street:

"No track suits after 6.30 pm."

Calm down, calm down and what have you.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

...all the while ignoring every bit of Maybrick-related information I've posted.

Eh? Must have missed this. What Maybrick-related 'information' has Mike posted?

Having a senior moment here.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Excerpts from The Fabulous National, pg.81 Liverpool Soundings, by Richard Whittington-Egan:

The year 1841 is noteworthy in that the race was won for the first time by a mare, the valiant "Charity." Since then, only a dozen other "remarkable ladies"
have finished first in this most arduous of races...

"Frigate" (1889)

It is interesting to recall in passing that it was in the year of "Frigate's" win that Mrs. Maybrick and her husband had a quarrel upon the Aintree course which was among the first causes of the murder for which she later stood trial and which became Liverpool's criminal cause celebre of 1889.

There is much mention in this chapter about the various record-times for many of the winning horses.

This chapter is interesting because in the OP, much is made of these "rare details" mentioned in the diary, of which, the national winner for 1889 was included.

Odd that those details can be found in a book authored by a well-respected Liverpool writer who also wrote about Maybrick's murder, and also more notably, Jack the Ripper.

Why 'odd'? Florence Maybrick and Jack the Ripper appeared together in a cartoon in the wake of the 1888 Whitechapel murders and the 1889 Maybrick trial. Is that also 'odd'? It's what happens when you have sensational news stories. Stuff will appear in print in various forms over the decades, so picking out one source as 'odd', and the likely source our naughty hoaxer used, is not good enough I'm afraid. The information was always there. RWE didn't pluck it out of the sky. He found it and used it for his publications just as our hoaxer used it to add colour to the diary.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I just find it interesting because I've never seen anyone specifically mention these books by W-E in relation to the details contained within the diary, and I have looked. I don't doubt that it may have been discussed somewhere, but I've not seen it.

It's surely not a coincidence that these were a popular series of books about this city, containing chapters re: Maybrick, Florence and her lover, the National, and so on.

RWE's MM&M was used many times on the message boards to bash everyone over the head with, while shouting "Modern fake!" The boards did crash at one point (possibly caused by the volume - in both senses) and a load of old cobblers - sorry, posts - got lost forever.

But this is very old hat, I'm afraid, which is probably why you haven't seen any recent discussion of RWE as a possible source.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

It may interest you to know that my family is acquainted with the Devereaux's. I know a lot of the younger Devereaux's, including Michael and Anthony, as we attended St. Austin's together and played football as children.

Devereux. Spelling.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I've never spoken to Tony, but I do remember him being at football games on the fields next to the police club on Riversdale. I'm pretty sure that my parents were on good terms with Tony, as most of the kids' parents were around that time due to us all attending the same tight-knit school.

Tony Devereux was living on Fountains Road, near the Saddle, in 1991, quite a way from Aigburth and Riversdale Road. Do you know where he was living when your parents knew him?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Always very sad when this once Great Thread, the Greatest Thread of All, is reduced to shabby points which "may well point to authenticity".

I say 'shabby' because the solution is simple. The 1957 book, This Friendless Lady, by Nigel Morland, which has long been put forward as one of the forger's sources, states, at page 40:

"Edwin Maybrick, for whom Florence had always held a great regard, returned from the United States after a visit on business lasting since the previous August. He dined with James the following evening..."

Morland's book also tells us that James' pet name for Florence was 'Bunny' and, often overlooked by proponents of the Diary, that Michael wrote lyrics (i.e. page 7 refers to "the strong religious and moral nature of his lyrics"), something which is said by Diary believers to have been an astonishing piece of knowledge for a forger to have acquired.

The solution is simple, David? Are you claiming the hoaxer(s) definitely used Morland as one of their sources? Or simply that the information was out there and available to Morland, so it was also out there and available to a hoaxer, whenever the diary was researched and written? If it's the latter I totally agree with you, although it would be a fairly obvious point to make.

Love,

Caz
X