One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, you have misinterpreted the point.

I'm saying it was not a "purely industrial expression".

It was a notation. Nothing more than like writing x1 or x2 or x3 etc. on a plan.

It wasn't an expression. It couldn't be used in a sentence. It wasn't part of the English language.

Is there actual proof that it couldn't have been spoken as one off? Again, if there is I couldn't argue.

[David Orsam]

Is there actual proof that it couldn't have been spoken as one off? Again, if there is I couldn't argue.

Well it wasn't part of the English language so that seems to me to be proof that no-one would have used in when speaking English.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well it wasn't part of the English language so that seems to me to be proof that no-one would have used in when speaking English.

Yes but if it was written down surely there had to be a way of saying it. I can't think of anything else that you can write down but not say.

[David Orsam]

Yes but if it was written down surely there had to be a way of saying it. I can't think of anything else that you can write down but not say.

Well the words "one" and "off" can obviously be spoken. But if A says to B "I need widgets times one, bolts times five and screws times seven" is that really language? Similarly, if he says "I need widgets one off, bolts five off and screws seven off" where does that get you?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well the words "one" and "off" can obviously be spoken. But if A says to B "I need widgets times one, bolts times five and screws times seven" is that really language? Similarly, if he says "I need widgets one off, bolts five off and screws seven off" where does that get you?

.

Yes but you said 'it wasn't an expression. It couldn't be used in a sentence.' But if the phrase can be spoken, as you said 'widgets one off.' Or in reply to the question 'how many of x do we need,' the reply 'we need one off.' So that means that it could be used in a sentence.

[David Orsam]

Yes but you said 'it wasn't an expression. It couldn't be used in a sentence.' But if the phrase can be spoken, as you said 'widgets one off.' Or in reply to the question 'how many of x do we need,' the reply 'we need one off.' So that means that it could be used in a sentence.

No, you're now getting confused. The reply would be "we need one".

The "one off" was a written notation. Sure you could read it out, like in the example I gave, but it wouldn't work when spoken in a sentence because, when you speak, you only need to say "one". "one off" as a quantity when spoken makes no sense at all.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No, you're now getting confused. The reply would be "we need one".

The "one off" was a written notation. Sure you could read it out, like in the example I gave, but it wouldn't work when spoken in a sentence because, when you speak, you only need to say "one". "one off" as a quantity when spoken makes no sense at all.

Ive worked in industry, not Victorian industry I admit, but I've known many people who would use it in speech like that. I can recall a Production Conroller who I can almost hear now using a sentence like ' right we need 4 off manifolds.' Or 'we've got all the manifolds that we need but we still need 4 off sumps.' That's genuinely not an isolated peculiarity of speech. Not 'average man on the street talk' of course. I know that it doesn't really work when you are using good English but people don't always follow the rules of language when they speak' especially in certain environments.

[pinkmoon]

When we look at all the known facts and chain of events surrounding the dear diary we know deep down in our hearts that the diary was a fake written sometime after 1988.

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=pinkmoon;417545]When we look at all the known facts and chain of events surrounding the dear diary we know deep down in our hearts that the diary was a fake written sometime after 1988.[/QUOTE

It could well be a forgery but I try not to think with my heart. I can't trust my brain some of the time so I certainly don't trust my heart

Regards
Herlock

[David Orsam]

Ive worked in industry, not Victorian industry I admit, but I've known many people who would use it in speech like that. I can recall a Production Conroller who I can almost hear now using a sentence like ' right we need 4 off manifolds.' Or 'we've got all the manifolds that we need but we still need 4 off sumps.' That's genuinely not an isolated peculiarity of speech. Not 'average man on the street talk' of course. I know that it doesn't really work when you are using good English but people don't always follow the rules of language when they speak' especially in certain environments.

There's all kinds of industrial slang. But where is it getting us?

And for the avoidance of doubt, I have no doubt that someone in the nineteenth century might have said of, e.g., a pack of cards "give me one off the top".

But that's a different meaning entirely. We need to get to "one off" meaning "unique" so this discussion, while very enjoyable, is redundant.

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=David Orsam;417550]There's all kinds of industrial slang. But where is it getting us?

And for the avoidance of doubt, I have no doubt that someone in the nineteenth century might have said of, e.g., a pack of cards "give me one off the top".

But that's a different meaning entirely. We need to get to "one off" meaning "unique" so this discussion, while very enjoyable, is redundant.[/QUOT

The industrial slang 'one off' can mean unique and I see no reason why this has to be different in Victorian times. A Victorian moulder could have been told ' Fred, I've got a one off job for you.' Meaning a job that would never be made again. Therefore we have 'one off' as a unique item.

[David Orsam]

The industrial slang 'one off' can mean unique and I see no reason why this has to be different in Victorian times. A Victorian moulder could have been told ' Fred, I've got a one off job for you.' Meaning a job that would never be made again. Therefore we have 'one off' as a unique item.

And I repeat that there is no evidence for this, it isn't known to have existed in the English language and the dictionaries and the experts trace the origin of "one off" to mean "unique" as being twentieth century. This matches my own research.

And "one off job" is still a long way from "one off instance" or similar because the latter is taking a one off job, a product, and metaphorically applying the expression to an event, something which is not known to have occurred until the middle of the twentieth century.

As I have repeatedly said and I can't make it any clearer, if the author of the Diary used the expression "one off instance" in 1888 or 1889 he was the first person in the world known to have used "one off" in this way (or, indeed, in ANY way) and it wasn't used in this way again, as far as is known, for about another fifty years.

That is why it is not credible to suggest that the Diary was written in 1888 or 1889.

I cannot put it any plainer than that to you.

And in fact I have already done so more than once.

[Graham]

This once-interesting thread is no longer a discussion - it is absolutely the nadir of any thread on any subject I have followed on Casebook in the dozen or more years I have been following it. It is, frankly, pathetic.

Graham

[David Orsam]

This once-interesting thread is no longer a discussion - it is absolutely the nadir of any thread on any subject I have followed on Casebook in the dozen or more years I have been following it. It is, frankly, pathetic.

Thanks Graham. Your contribution there has really improved it no end.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This once-interesting thread is no longer a discussion - it is absolutely the nadir of any thread on any subject I have followed on Casebook in the dozen or more years I have been following it. It is, frankly, pathetic.

Graham

As pathetic and arrogant as someone who just swoops down from on high to hurl an insult!