One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary

[David Orsam]

But was it all his own idea, or did he show this diary to Alan Gray in the latter part of 1994, who had the brainwave and helped him milk its potential significance? Why no mention of it prior to January 1995 if Mike had known perfectly well for at least six months how he could use it to his advantage?

Excellent, a brand new conspiracy theory!

Shame about the complete absence of any evidence to support it.

[David Orsam]

Impossible? Possible to state a minimum number of blank pages, but 'impractical if not impossible' to state minimum page size and that the blank pages have to be consecutive

I said "impractical if not impossible".

Your whole point, that you keep repeating, about consecutive pages completely ignores the fact that the first words of the advert were for an "Unused or partly used…" diary. Now an unused diary must have consecutive pages all the way through. A "partly used" diary will almost certainly, up to a 99% level of confidence, have consecutive blank pages at the end because the partial usage will surely be at the beginning. In other words, a diary that someone started but did not complete. So the word "consecutive" in the advert would have been unnecessary (but might have increased the cost of the ad).

[David Orsam]

Are you suggesting it wasn't Mike who specified the need for at least 20 blank pages? If he did, what was preventing him from adding that the pages had to be consecutive and at least, say, 6"x6"?

No, of course it was Mike who specified the minimum of 20 blank pages when he spoke to the company. What I am saying is that the wording of that advertisement was clear and to the point. For the reason I've given above there was no need for the advert to say that the pages of an unused or partly used diary had to be consecutive.

And I've already said that the diary did not need to be "at least" 6x6 if there was sufficient blank pages in a smaller diary. This measurement is something that you have conjured up from your imagination and would have been impractical for an advert. Demand at least a 6x6 diary and you've ruled out a perfectly good unused or partly used 5x6 diary haven't you? So your idea is broken.

[David Orsam]

What was the point of not doing so if nothing else would have fit the bill? And would HP Bookfinders have taken it upon themselves to ignore those crucial specifications to save space, with the risk that Mike would be justified in refusing to pay for either the useless advert or the resulting useless article?

What 'crucial specifications'? You've invented the notion that there were any of these.

Everything you say on this subject is based on hindsight. But with or without hindsight, the advert placed by HP Bookfinders was perfectly fine and needs no improvement.

[David Orsam]

We don't know Mike did intend to write out diary extracts for Doreen. It was just a suggestion.

Oh crikey. Well here's another suggestion. He wanted an unused or partly used diary from the 1880s in which to forge Jack the Ripper's diary in order to make some money.

Just a suggestion.

[David Orsam]

Anne was obviously aware of the purchase because she made it herself. My point was that there is no evidence that she was also aware of the order until the day she signed the cheque used to complete the purchase.

Since Mike was trying to use the red diary to claim he and Anne wrote the diary together, it stands to reason he was implying that she was in on the reasons for the purchase as well as the purchase itself. If you consider that a 'shred' because it was in his affidavit, we've been here before. Its reliability is indeed an entirely different matter.

Yes, I understood your point and I said that there is evidence that Anne was aware of the order, namely the evidence in Mike's affidavit. Whether that evidence is reliable or not is another matter. But it's a sworn affidavit so it is a 'shred' of evidence.

[David Orsam]

Hold on, David, where did I suggest that Mike may have 'thought all Victorian diaries were identical'? What on earth would have been the point of ordering one to see if 'the' diary was typical if he already believed they all looked the same and that his was no exception?

Well, if he knows that all Victorian diaries are different, what on earth was the point of ordering one for comparison purposes?

[David Orsam]

Whether he was hoping for a diary in which to write out the prepared draft of the forgery, or was just curious to know how closely 'the' diary might compare with someone's actual personal diary from the 1880s, the little red diary was not physically like anything he would have been hoping to see.

I wondered whether you had focused on the wording of the advertisement - and clearly you hadn't.

He could not have been "curious to know how closely 'the' diary might compare with someone's actual personal diary from the 1880s" because, according to the advertisement, he would have been perfectly happy with an unused diary from the 1880s. Thus, whatever he was interested in, it certainly wasn't someone's actual personal diary.

[David Orsam]

Your idea of 'pressing on regardless' was to head off without further ado to see if O&L were holding an auction and might just have on offer the kind of book he actually needed

Well if that's what happened, it was obviously a pretty good idea.

[David Orsam]

You could always check with Keith. Strictly speaking, anything not included in our book is not mine to post publicly even if I have that information. I've already mentioned the appointment letter Doreen sent to Mike 'Barrett' to confirm the date and time of their first meeting in London on April 13th. But I couldn't say when that date was first discussed and agreed with all parties concerned, although I personally have no problem with Mike already having the guard book when Doreen wrote that she would like to see it 'in due course'.

Okay so you don't know. That's all you need to say.

And, for the record, I personally have no problem with Mike not having the guard book when Doreen wrote that she would like to see it 'in due course'.

[David Orsam]

Nothing, except it was you who introduced the concept of Doreen's ticking clock.

A ticking clock yes, not a gun to his head. And I clarified that by ticking clock I meant no more than that he wanted a diary as soon as possible.

I mean, I suppose in theory he could have instructed 100 different bookfinding agencies, travelled around the country visiting second hand bookshops, tracked down diary collectors, visited every single auction house he could find, all at the same time, rather than do what most people do which is try one thing first and then, if that fails, try another.

So what do you think is wrong with having a Plan A and a Plan B running consecutively - like the blank pages Mike would have needed to complete Plan C, the actual writing out of the forgery draft?

There's nothing wrong with it but it overcomplicates matters because he could have gone out to an auction, spent £50 on a diary, only to return home to find a message from HP Bookfinders that they've found a similar diary for £25. If you think you have a good Plan A there's no need to bother with Plan B until Plan A fails. This is all just common sense Caz.

[David Orsam]

But it would have been so easy for Mike to keep an eye on any upcoming local auctions while waiting to see if he would get a response to his telephone enquiry and the advert placed as a result. Yet he says nothing about this in his affidavit, so you are left to presume that he only thought of trying O&L when the red diary arrived at the end of March and proved useless.

Yes, he says nothing one way or the other in his affidavit so maybe he was keeping his eye on any upcoming local auctions. Perhaps that's why he was able to move so fast after the 1891 diary turned out to be too small.

In any event, it's clear from the story in his affidavit that he would have needed the £50 from his father-in-law so if this was only given to him after the first plan failed, that explains all.

[David Orsam]

Okay, so Anne's father gave him the cash after he was sent the red diary and before he went to the O&L auction. Got it. Maybe he asked for the rail fare to London at the same time.

But what if none of that is true? It's hardly reliable evidence, is it?

But Caz I'm not putting any of this forward as "reliable evidence". I'm only mentioning it as a possibility to counter your suggestions that none of this could have happened.

And I see you remain as obsessed with the rail fare to London as ever.

[David Orsam]

What a strange thing to say. You are the one obsessed with Mike's budget.

I'm not obsessed with Mike's budget at all. All I've said is that he didn't have much money so it's reasonable to say that wouldn't have spent money on the Diary project without getting confirmation that a literary agent was interested in the diary. From that very simple and, in my view, uncontroversial statement I seem to have to keep dealing with various speculative hypothetical scenarios put forward by you of other things he should or could have done.

[David Orsam]

If he didn't know where the money was going to come from for whichever book he eventually managed to obtain for his forgery - and it certainly wasn't from his own pocket - he presumably didn't care either.

Well that is an assumption for which we seem to have no evidence. For that reason I cannot agree with it.

Con merchants tend to beg, borrow or steal what they need or they wouldn't become con merchants in the first place. Did Mike specify a maximum of £25 when ordering the red diary which Anne would eventually pay for? Did he set himself a maximum bid of £50 for the guard book, from the cash he got from his generous father-in-law?

What I find ironic is that in the context of you repeatedly claiming that I am "obsessed" with Mike's budget you just can't seem to stop considering the question of Mike's budget!