One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary

[c.d.]

I do see and F and an M but I think that is only because I was looking for it. I don't think that I would have seen it otherwise. I think to consider them initials is pushing it.

c.d.

[Soothsayer]

I do see and F and an M but I think that is only because I was looking for it. I don't think that I would have seen it otherwise. I think to consider them initials is pushing it.

c.d.

How about a small nudge, then?

[Soothsayer]

Thanks for providing that extract, Sooth.

I'm in bewildered awe that ol' Rubes could have fallen for this stuff to the extent that he has.

Yes, and I should stress here that I was only citing the Rubster as a source of the Laurenz/Florence argument.

Even I would have to take issue with some of his forthright views on the diary.

[Bailey]

There was enough there to come up with "May" without needing - and I street the word "need" - any telegrams from Florence.

I would think it's also telling that in the diary text referring to the Punch cartoon he refers to seeing "the first three letters of my last name" - not "there for all to see was the nickname by which my wife and friends call me all the time."

The diarist is taking some delight in a coincidental bit of word play, which is consistent with the personality reflected therein. In the event that the diary was genuine (or forged by someone who knew about the May telegram or had other knowledge of Maybrick being called May with any regularity) surely you'd expect that this reference would be more specific to a nickname than the first three letters of my surname, and would most likely have made a bigger deal of it.

B.

[Sam Flynn]

Is you evidently perceive it, what precludes the something similar to an 'FM' on the wall from being an 'FM' on the wall?

Would it be your belief?

No, Tom - I try not to deal in "belief" per se. On the contrary, I have a perfectly rational explanation for it, which is backed up by contemporary medical reports of "separate splashes" of blood on the partition wall. The marks I see on the wall - only some of which go to make up the apparent "FM", I might add - are entirely consistent with that explanation.

[c.d.]

Hi Soothsayer,

The problem is, even if we assume that the killer left those initials deliberately, why did he not put them on a portion of the wall where they would not be obscured? Also, if it was Maybrick, why did he not use his own initials?

If you want to take credit for such a brutal murder why do it so discretely? And if you want to taunt the police, why not use your own initials rather than those of your wife? Even if the initials were clearly deliberate, what could the police do with just an FM?

I just can't see it (pun intended).

c.d.

[Omlor]

"Feldman asks 'What does Diego Laurenz mean? I have no idea. Is it a clue?' In my opinion, indeed it is - arguably the most important clue that we have. 'Diego' is Spanish for James, while 'Laurenz' is meant to rhyme with 'Florence'. If this is what it means, then this constitutes virtual proof that James Maybrick was Jack the Ripper. (Anyone familiar with the diary will know Maybrick's penchant for puns and word-games. And why was a letter written with such assurance sent to a Liverpool newspaper?)"

You see, this is exactly what I mean when I talk about diarists suspending all the normal rules of logic and making the facts fit the pre-determined conclusions strictly on their own blind and irrational faith.

The letter is signed in a Spanish name. We then have to translate half of the Spanish name, pretend one of the words rhymes with an English name, and then conclude that the thing was written by one specific individual despite the fact that there is no real evidence anywhere on the planet that even remotely links him in any way to the letter.

But, delightfully, that's not the most irrational part of all this.

The true moment of stupidity follows, when we are asked to believe that this would be consistent with Maybrick's love of puns and word games. And what evidence are we offered that the real James had such a love?

The diary.

Even a first year logic student can see the glaring error here.

You can't assume the truth of a desired conclusion and then use it to prove the very premisses which were intended to prove the conclusion.

It's classically bad thinking.

It's an exercise either in intellectual sloppiness or simple deceit or blindly irrational faith.

And whichever option the reader chooses, the one thing he can be sure of is that it is a load of...

Well, you get the idea.

And if you read Feldman or the Rubester (or "Soothy" here -- in deference to the other Tom), you see this sort of thing time and time again.

It's what makes Diary World the wonderfully illogical place that it is, built as it has been on the discussion of an obvious hoax.

--John

[Soothsayer]

No, Tom - I try not to deal in "belief" per se. On the contrary, I have a perfectly rational explanation for it, which is backed up by contemporary medical reports of "separate splashes" of blood on the partition wall. The marks I see on the wall - only some of which go to make up the apparent "FM", I might add - are entirely consistent with that explanation.

How strange - I actually don't rely on belief either ... I just look (as so many others have too) and say 'Oh, there's a weak 'F' and a reasonably clear 'M' with the same rising second half as the Ms in that Maybrick forgery thing.

My perception of the FM is no more wilfull than your perception of blood splatters, and yet the former view is perpetually defined as psychological need, and the latter as (dare I say it on this site) 'reason' - but generally by those who believe the latter over the former. Bit of self-fulfilling prophecy going on with your anti-diarists and the letters that are pretty clear given that they aren't there.

And the diary makes a fairly unmistakable reference to them? Amazing!

Our forger must have been the first to identify them!

Come on guys - it's time to give in to what your senses tell you ... after all, as a brilliant, maverick, don't-play-by-the-rules-but-still-get-results-and-earn-the-begrudging-respect-of-his-colleagues detective once said, 'Seeing is Believing'.

Allegedly ...

[Soothsayer]

Hi Soothsayer,

The problem is, even if we assume that the killer left those initials deliberately, why did he not put them on a portion of the wall where they would not be obscured? Also, if it was Maybrick, why did he not use his own initials?

If you want to take credit for such a brutal murder why do it so discretely? And if you want to taunt the police, why not use your own initials rather than those of your wife? Even if the initials were clearly deliberate, what could the police do with just an FM?

I just can't see it (pun intended).

c.d.

In the context of the diary, c.d., he was referring to his unfaithful wife (he says around this time, 'An initial here and an initial there will tell of the whoring mother'). The point was that each of his victims represented what he wanted to do to his wife. The 'FM' was put on the wall to signify this.

I doubt very much he was thinking about the photographic aspect of the location of the 'FM' - so 'obscuring' them would hardly be relevant.

I also doubt he would want the letters to actually be noticed. If he really did commit the crimes, then he presumably just wanted the thrill of leaving a clue that 'the fools' would never find.

I can see it (pun intended).

[Simon Wood]

Hi Soothsayer,

Our forger was the second person to "see" the initials.

The Maybrick "Diary" is as phony as a nine-bob note [or, for our American cousins, a nine-dollar note].

Get over it.

Regards,

Simon

[Omlor]

"I also doubt he would want..."

He? Who?

"If he really did commit the crimes..."

Again, you can't assume the conclusion in order to validate the premise you are using to establish the conclusion.

There is chicanery at work here people. At best, it's careless thinking, at worst, it's intentional game playing.

Either way, it's invalid.

--John

[Soothsayer]

And if my auntie had bollocks, that constitutes virtual proof that she's my uncle.
Best regards,
Ben

Ben,

Would it surprise you if I told you that my auntie actually does have bollocks?

He's a bit embarrassed about it, so let's keep it between you and me, eh?

Soothy

[Ben]

I would think it's also telling that in the diary text referring to the Punch cartoon he refers to seeing "the first three letters of my last name" - not "there for all to see was the nickname by which my wife and friends call me all the time."

Very astute observation, Bailey!

Hi Sooth,

It's not an M.

It's part of a larger pattern that includes something that looks vaguely like an "M". It's not an "F" by any stretch of the imagination. There's no "desire" attached to the belief that it was bloodstains since we know for a fact that blood did spatter against that very wall, whereas the notion that police and medical officials all overlooked some "initials" is impossibly ridiculous.

Regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

I also doubt he would want the letters to actually be noticed. If he really did commit the crimes, then he presumably just wanted the thrill of leaving a clue that 'the fools' would never find.

Using Kelly's blood to daub initials - what? - four inches high on the panel beside the bed was hardly going to help him in that aim, Tom. If he had done so, then he'd have left a message written in letters that were fully 300% as big as those in the Goulston Street Graffito... are we expected to believe that nobody at the time noticed them, or felt them worthy of mention? Or are we to assume that Dr Bond's "separate splashes" of blood was some coded reference to this remarkable clue?

[Soothsayer]

Hi Soothsayer,

Our forger was the second person to "see" the initials.

The Maybrick "Diary" is as phony as a nine-bob note [or, for our American cousins, a nine-dollar note].

Get over it.

Regards,

Simon

Simon,

I trust you aren't trying to ruin my fun!

So, are you finally answering my question? The letters you commented on in 1988 were where we now look for the main 'FM' (not the other 'FM' pointed out in another thread)?

Detective Soothsayer