Originally posted by Iconoclast
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One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary
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Originally posted by John G View PostHello David,
Has it been proven that he worked at the Poste House pub as a barman, as he claimed? Because, frankly, I find his assertion that he "gained full-knowledge of the history of the old pub", whilst employed in that capacity to be very dubious.
I mean, are we to believe that he stumbled across some old records whilst changing a barrel in the basement? Or perhaps he acquired his knowledge whilst serving at the bar, via the occasional conversation with one or two slightly inebriated regulars.
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Originally posted by David Orsam View PostYou can't shake Holocaust deniers from denying the Holocaust. The Holocaust denial goes on. But do they have any rational basis for denying it? That's the question.
Let's take your list:
"Mike Barrett did not write a Maybrick hoax - he simply lacked the wits to do so, and most commentators on both sides of the fence having met him seem to have concurred." Not agreed. The 'commentators' you refer to only met him after March 1992. I understand he became an alcoholic. But the fact that he was able to produce pages of 'research notes' proves to me that he was perfectly capable of functioning as a normal person and thus of forging the diary, especially with help from others.
"The journal looks on the surface to be a very poor attempt at a hoax - superficially there is little about it, its provenence, nor its contents to really commend it to any sane person." I would not say "poor attempt at a hoax". It seems to me to be a decent effort, textually speaking. No doubt that is why some people have been convinced.
"And yet, it will not be shaken - of that there is no doubt." - Saying this repeatedly does not make it so.
"In the last 8 years, no-one has really disproven the journal" - Disputed. "one off instance" is the error which disproves it.
"'One-off' was debated before" - It was debated before but people pointed to Shirley Harrison's "discovery" as proof that it was not anachronistic. Although the lack of documentation was mentioned in Inside Story I appear to have been the first to note the complete absence of any supporting evidence.
"But finally David Orsam has made a fairly compelling case for 'one-off instance' being an irrefutable anachronism. Personally, I don't know this for sure. I don't think he has made his case so categorically, but being a pragmatist, I accept that there is something deeply wrong in this possibility." Thank you, the argument either needs to be controverted or the challenge this thread posed has been met.
But if he received "help from others", how do we know exactly what his contribution was? How do we know that he wasn't simply a frontman, whose contribution to the forging of the diary was negligible or none existent?
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Originally posted by David Orsam View PostIt's not anything I have claimed John so I can't answer your post.
But surely this is significant. I mean, if he actually did forge the diary then he would have no reason to lie about how he acquired "full knowledge" of the history of the Poste House pub. Therefore, if he did lie about this point his entire account is seriously undermined.
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Originally posted by caz View PostCome on, David, this is not new and I suspect you know it. It has been an ongoing situation since 2007 and I had no control over the 'secret' evidence being referred to but not revealed in all its glory. If you want to blame someone, blame me by all means, but I did not introduce the 'notion' of a Battlecrease provenance, either on or off the message boards, and I am not at liberty to expand on it. I can't wish it away, however, and won't be put off referring to it myself, whenever I feel it is appropriate to remind people of its existence. You can't consider or comment on it here, I realise, but if you secretly doubted its existence, I'd be surprised if you hadn't secretly sought and received confirmation from the appropriate source. It's a simple enough question, and a simple 'yes it exists', or 'no it does not, I must have imagined it back in 2007', or 'no comment', would hardly have touched on the confidentiality issue. I wonder why you'd think otherwise, or why that would even be your concern?
You earlier gave me the option of "take it or leave it" and I said I leave it. I have no interest in discussing evidence I haven't seen.
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Originally posted by John G View PostHello Ike,
Do you think it would have been possible to have forged the Diary, without researching Maybrick's life and the Whitechapel murders in some detail, as David has suggested? See, for example, http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...y/mhguide.html
Where I struggle is with what came out of the subsequent research which actually seems to draw Maybrick into the thick of it far much more than less. Almost nothing has emerged post-publication to denounce the journal as a hoax, but other teasing details have emerged which seem to support the journal as authentic. I'm thinking, by way of example, of the Diego Laurenz note to the Liverpool Echo. Like Prof. Rubenstein, I am unable to get my head around the sheer implausibility of such a thing being uncovered. Or the GSG containing cryptic references to each of the key Maybricks, and the word 'nothing' appearing in the policeman's copy in the very hand it appears in the journal. In the latter case, a clever hoaxer may have accessed the Sept. 17 letter and reviewed the transcription of the GSG and simply styled the journal's handwriting on them (amongst others), but this requires much more than Harris' interpretation of the hoax.
I could go on, but this summarises my views, and my answer to your question. Of course, the Maybrick journal may be a hoax, but it absolutely has not yet been proven to be so and until it is I accept that there are not strong enough grounds for discounting its authenticity.
Cheers,
Ike
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Originally posted by John G View PostBut if he received "help from others", how do we know exactly what his contribution was? How do we know that he wasn't simply a frontman, whose contribution to the forging of the diary was negligible or none existent?
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Originally posted by John G View PostHello David,
But surely this is significant. I mean, if he actually did forge the diary then he would have no reason to lie about how he acquired "full knowledge" of the history of the Poste House pub. Therefore, if he did lie about this point his entire account is seriously undermined.
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Originally posted by David Orsam View PostYou do know the difference between a lie and a mistake, right?
That they are untruths?
If I said I had four pounds in my purse, and someone looked and found only three, I would have spoken a demonstrable untruth, although it would be more likely a mistake than a lie.
If Mike said he had four hundred pound coins in his wallet, he might simply have been mistaken, but I would plump for the lie - every time.
Love,
Caz
X"Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov
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Originally posted by David Orsam View Post"And yet, it will not be shaken - of that there is no doubt." - Saying this repeatedly does not make it so.
I don't think I did. You just quoted the same line twice?
Ike
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Originally posted by David Orsam View Post"'One-off' was debated before" - It was debated before but people pointed to Shirley Harrison's "discovery" as proof that it was not anachronistic. Although the lack of documentation was mentioned in Inside Story I appear to have been the first to note the complete absence of any supporting evidence.
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Originally posted by David Orsam View Post"But finally David Orsam has made a fairly compelling case for 'one-off instance' being an irrefutable anachronism. Personally, I don't know this for sure. I don't think he has made his case so categorically, but being a pragmatist, I accept that there is something deeply wrong in this possibility." Thank you, the argument either needs to be controverted or the challenge this thread posed has been met.
Livia Trivia put that little misunderstanding to bed, and now I live in hope that her genius works its wisdom on your one-off instance, and we can all go back to believing in the journal's authenticity.
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Originally posted by caz View PostIf I said I had four pounds in my purse, and someone looked and found only three, I would have spoken a demonstrable untruth, although it would be more likely a mistake than a lie.
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Originally posted by Iconoclast View PostAh, you flatter yourself, sir. I (and I'm sure many others) had long since noted that observation in Ripper Diary. If asked, I'd have been the first to acknowledge it, I'm sure.
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Originally posted by Iconoclast View PostYour incontrovertible fact is as solid as the old gem that Michael Maybrick only composed music.
I have never said anything about Maybrick only composing music - I have no idea - so what does that have to do with the price of fish?
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