Who was the author of the 'Maybrick' diary? Some options.

[caz]

Hello Caz

The phrase used in the diary is "the whore seen her master today", or similar. Don't know the page number offhand.

Ah yes, that sounds familiar now, Gareth. Thank you me dear.

As I said, typically Liverpudlian - not in the sense that only Scousers use it, but in the sense that I've personally lost count of the number of times I've heard or seen it used in and around Liverpool itself, or by Liverpudlians abroad [and by that I mean anywhere outside the area, not just overseas ], from the rough sleeper in the Cavern Quarter to the office clerk [like Maybrick was for a number of years after leaving school, which would have been in the early 1850s], to the history buff, like my old mate Tony, and even among the higher educated classes such as teachers.

If the hoaxer was Liverpudlian him/herself, or knew any personally, it would have been natural enough to have their "Sir Jim" write 'seen', as a jumped-up clerk with delusions of grandeur, which his basic 1840s education couldn't hope to live up to.

If they had chosen a soft southerner as their diarist and murderer, I'd have seen a red flag with that 'seen'. As it is, there is really nothing to see here.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I think Jerryd posted a press interview with Albert Bachert from 1890 which uses the phrase "gave him a call", post #8, 3rd article in this thread;

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10554

Good spot, Joshua, and of course Gary Barnett found many, many more examples from long before the late 1880s.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

Sorry, Caz, but that use of "seen" is not particular to Liverpool. It is very prevalent throughout Britain, particularly among those of a certain class.

[Sam Flynn]

I think Jerryd posted a press interview with Albert Bachert from 1890 which uses the phrase "gave him a call", post #8, 3rd article in this thread;

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10554

Indeed, and I'm not denying that, Joshua. My point is that the phrase would have become more frequently used at a later date, when widespread access to telephones become the norm, and "giving" someone a call became something that happened on a daily, indeed more frequent, basis.

We often "nip round" to visit friends in the next town, for example - whether on foot or by vehicle - and I daresay that people occasionally "nipped round" before the advent of the car. But I'll bet my bottom dollar that vastly more people would casually speak of "nipping round" somewhere only after cars became more affordable, ubiquitous and "nippy".

[caz]

Sorry, Caz, but that use of "seen" is not particular to Liverpool. It is very prevalent throughout Britain, particularly among those of a certain class.

Not in the London area it's not, Gareth. What my Mum would have called "common" is the expression "I see" used as the past tense "I saw".

I mixed with every possible class of people as I grew up and beyond into adulthood, and although "common" southerners will say the grating "I see" when they mean "I saw", I can't recall anyone but Liverpudlians or other northerners saying "I seen" when they mean "I saw". But "I seen" is not restricted to the lowest orders, as I know very well from personal experience.

Not that it should matter a jot to you, Gareth, because you believe a Scouser or two did write the diary!

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Not in the London area it's not, Gareth. What my Mum would have called "common" is the expression "I see" used as the past tense "I saw".

I mixed with every possible class of people as I grew up and beyond into adulthood, and although "common" southerners will say the grating "I see" when they mean "I saw", I can't recall anyone but Liverpudlians or other northerners saying "I seen" when they mean "I saw". But "I seen" is not restricted to the lowest orders, as I know very well from personal experience.

Not that it should matter a jot to you, Gareth, because you believe a Scouser or two did write the diary!

Love,

Caz
X

I know this is totally off topic but what’s a scouser? Actually what are all the British nicknames for people from different areas in England?I’m fascinated by this sort of thing.

[Graham]

Caz and Sam,

"I seen" is also still very common, sad to say, amongst Brummies. But it's the least horrific example of how our language is mangled by the good folk of the West Midlands.

Oddly enough, in the Black Country - where the accent is totally different to Brummie - "I saw" is normally used.

Graham.

[John G]

A scouser is someone from Liverpool, Abby. A person from Newcastle, or the north-east of England generally, would be a geordie.

[Abby Normal]

A scouser is someone from Liverpool, Abby. A person from Newcastle, or the north-east of England generally, would be a geordie.

Thanks John. Which one are you?

[John G]

Thanks John. Which one are you?

Neither Abby, I was born in Nottingham and I don't think they have a name for that!

[Sam Flynn]

"I seen" is also still very common, sad to say, amongst Brummies.

'Tis true of South Wales, too, Graham. I often hear it in my home town, and at work in nearby Swansea.

[c.d.]

I swear, English people have so many expressions, slang and euphemisms to learn they are probably at least 15 before they can get out their first sentence.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Not in the London area it's not, Gareth.

Not in my experience, Caz. I've heard quasi-Cockneys in the Darftord/Bexley areas use the expression, and Phil has already posted that link to Peter Sellers' impression of a London actor using it. "I seen" - with its relatives, "I done", "I says" and "I goes" - seems to be present in the everyday speech of people of predominantly working-class cultures all over Britain, London included.

Not that it should matter a jot to you, Gareth, because you believe a Scouser or two did write the diary!

"I seen" isn't peculiarly Scouse, though, and that's never been my point. I believe that one or more lower-class (and, frankly, none-to-bright) people wrote the diary, and its containing the phrase "the whore seen her master" is perfectly congruent with that hypothesis.

[John G]

I swear, English people have so many expressions, slang and euphemisms to learn they are probably at least 15 before they can get out their first sentence.

c.d.

That's the problem, c.d. Many of these regional expressions are totally confusing to most British people. For instance, I was once called a "barnpot" by a Scottish pub landlord. It didn't really sound that complementary, however, it wasn't until the internet came along that I discovered it basically means a moron!

[c.d.]

Hello John,

I read an interesting explanation as to why British people use two extended fingers instead of one to insult somebody. The whole English archers thing. Are you familiar with that?

c.d.