25 YEARS OF THE DIARY OF JACK THE RIPPER: THE TRUE FACTS by Robert Smith

[Henry Flower]

Spreads mayhem. Low eyebrow factor. Heck even I do that.
Mayhem is the name of the butter substitute for people with low IQ right?

No, you're thinking of I Can't Believe It's Not Carnage.

[Kaz]

and several pieces of evidence that points to it being a fake.

Which are?

[Mike J. G.]

By your own admission much more detective work is needed, more handwriting samples, James's whereabouts, provenance etc

IF more info were to materialise would your probability view change?

I'm not so stubborn as to deny concrete evidence, Kaz. Right now the verdit is that Maybrick didn't write that diary, and was very unlikely to be the Ripper, or a murderer of any kind. There are enough clues as to the diary being a hoax.

If anyone is going to prove that the diary is genuine, and was written by Maybrick, and that Maybrick is the killer, then we'll need actual provenance, actual evidence, and actual sources that can be verified.

There'd certainly need to be a match for May's handwriting, and confirmation that he was in London on the dates of the C5 murders. Without either of those, it's honestly disingenuous for anyone to claim that the diary is genuine and May was the killer.

[Ally]

Hey everyone, I’ve got an idea, it’s a bit radical but bear with me ….

Maybe only people who are actually interested in the diary should post on this thread. Or any other diary thread.

Instead of people saying it’s an obvious forgery, it’s full of errors, Maybrick’s not a serious suspect etc etc.

If you think it’s a fake, don’t read the thread or post anything, which will save us all a lot of time.

Otherwise it just falls into the sarcastic ‘you can’t really still believe this is real?’ type of post which doesn’t benefit anyone.

The outcome will be that anyone who’s actually interested in the diary, for whatever reason, will be able to read a thread that may actually be informative & surely that’s beneficial to everyone?

Yes. Everybody should just stick to their beliefs and not expose themselves to facts that counter their entrenched ideas. That's how the world should work. God forbid anyone challenge their concept of the universe. And gasp...possibly have to admit they were wrong. The very idea.

[Abby Normal]

No, you're thinking of I Can't Believe It's Not Carnage.

Hahahahaha

[Ally]

Which are?

You already know them and they've already been pointed out repeatedly.

The most compelling, for me, is the linguistic anachronisms. The diarist might as well have written "Dude, I like totally killed those women." Like..utterly bogus, man.

[Mike J. G.]

Why not? Between 1874 and 1880 he spent 6 months of every year in the States.

I've spent time in the states, but I don't come back with an American drawl and using American phrases, lol.

James did spend time between the US and UK offices of his company, but to say he'd suddenly start using American phrases because of this is a bit of a stretch.

[Kaz]

I'm not so stubborn as to deny concrete evidence, Kaz. Right now the verdit is that Maybrick didn't write that diary, and was very unlikely to be the Ripper, or a murderer of any kind. There are enough clues as to the diary being a hoax.

If anyone is going to prove that the diary is genuine, and was written by Maybrick, and that Maybrick is the killer, then we'll need actual provenance, actual evidence, and actual sources that can be verified.

There'd certainly need to be a match for May's handwriting, and confirmation that he was in London on the dates of the C5 murders. Without either of those, it's honestly disingenuous for anyone to claim that the diary is genuine and May was the killer.

Great, so you accept we need more info to prove categorically its fake.


Shifts your probability scale up a few notches then?

[Kaz]

I've spent time in the states, but I don't come back with an American drawl and using American phrases, lol.

James did spend time between the US and UK offices of his company, but to say he'd suddenly start using American phrases because of this is a bit of a stretch.

REally?

My sister lived in Wales for 10 months and came back sounding WELSH!

being cornish it wasn't best received...

[Kaz]

You already know them and they've already been pointed out repeatedly.

The most compelling, for me, is the linguistic anachronisms. The diarist might as well have written "Dude, I like totally killed those women." Like..utterly bogus, man.

Theres many experts in the field who totally disagree with your assumption.

[Ally]

Theres many experts in the field who totally disagree with your assumption.

Lol..really, and what experts are those? And it's not an assumption. It's a fact. There are linguistic anachronisms.

[Mike J. G.]

The situation can't be put any plainer JG.

The thing is, both the believers in Maybrick being Jack The Ripper, and those believing it to be an "old" hoax, are far too entrenched in their beliefs to change their ways. Some I suspect have a vested interest in those beliefs. I do not think that the book being discussed in this thread will be the last book to be written with regard to the Maybrick Diary.

I accept that the individuals described above, are entitled to use the same argument when questioning we who realise that the Diary is a modern hoax. However, looking at all the evidence I believe we have the upper hand by some distance. I can't see any change though in the foreseeable future. I believe the subject to be the ultimate stalemate.

It would be interesting to see the outcome of a poll on the subject, where not only Casebook members are allowed to vote, but also individuals who follow these threads, of which there are many.

I've always been interested in Maybrick, and when the Ripper stuff came about, I was in awe of the possibility. I think it's the same for others, they're romantically persuaded by the story and the drama of it all.

That being said, whenever I brought it up with anyone, people just smiled. I've yet to meet one person in the outside world who believes that the diary was genuinely written by Maybrick, or that Maybrick was a killer, never mind possibly the most notorious killer in history.

If people are actually weighing up the probabilities and looking at the whole facts, I cannot possibly see why anyone would think it was the real-deal, or why they'd assume it was an old hoax.

Logic dictates that the provenance is fraught with inconsistencies, the entire story is riddled with confused lies, the diary itself is questionable in that it contains red flags re: handwriting, out-of-dates phrases and pub names, etc.

Anyone looking at it with an open mind would find it hard to keep making a pass for these red flags.

Once the provenance is sketchy, and the lies start rolling in, the already dubious should become even more dubious.

Yet time and again, people seem willing to ignore these inconsistencies and make allowances for them.

Round and round we go. Plain and simple, some people just prefer to believe in the story, and why not? It's a decent bit of fiction that has it all, romance, drama, murder, affairs, poetry, the whole works.

It's the same with Roswell, people love the idea that it was aliens, crash-landing.

Bigfoot, hey, it's not a bloke in a suit, it's a giant ape-man that evaded detection.

Nessie, it's not a melting pot of misidentification and fabrication, it really is a holdover from a prehistoric peridod.

People love the fiction and discard the fact, because they don't find reality interesting enough.

[Henry Flower]

I think certain people need to be gently reminded that the burden of proof does not lie with doubters. We all have our reasoning and our arguments, and we all (hopefully) want the truth, but the burden of proof does not lie with the skeptic. This isn't like a courtroom trial where the Diary is innocent until proven guilty, not at all.

This is an extraordinary claim being made: The JtR mystery has been finally solved by the discovery of his secret diary in which he confesses all!

It's an extraordinary claim, and like all extraordinary claims - I filmed Bigfoot / I have Hitler's Diaries / the bronze-age tribal deity of the ancient Hebrews rules the cosmos and stands in judgment over your life / Bush did 9-11 / the Mob-CIA-anti-Castro-Cuban exiles killed Kennedy - etc - it requires seriously compelling evidence.

To say that its critics have !!!NO PROOF!!! that it's fake is utterly irrelevant. Proof, as such, may not exist, there might prove to be no smoking gun, but it's not a skeptic's job to disprove an extraordinary claim, the burden of proof lies with its proponents, Kaz .

We're entitled to say based on what we already know that we can reject the claims made on its behalf. It was introduced to the world by a man who had gone to some effort to acquire an unused or partially used Victorian diary. He confessed to forging it, then retracted his confession. The latest evidence consists of ... wait for it, drumroll please... electricians' timesheets! Those electricians deny any involvement, and any hypothetical reconstructions of their actions that day make no sense whatsoever. In other words we have an incredibly unlikely artifact (The diary confession of Jack the friggin Ripper, folks!) whose provenance is an absolute shambles - what are up to now, three different versions of how the thing came to light?

It contains fairly clear anachronisms, and at least one verbatim borrowing from a later book.

We don't NEED 'proof' to reject it on this basis alone. The burden of proof is on those who assert that it is genuine.

[StevenOwl]

James did spend time between the US and UK offices of his company, but to say he'd suddenly start using American phrases because of this is a bit of a stretch.

I'm not suggesting it was sudden; I'm merely pointing out that JM could have developed certain Americanisms over the 6 year period when his time was divided equally between the UK and US. I personally think it's far more of a stretch to say that he wouldn't have used any Americanisms at all.

[Mike J. G.]

Hey everyone, I’ve got an idea, it’s a bit radical but bear with me ….

Maybe only people who are actually interested in the diary should post on this thread. Or any other diary thread.

Instead of people saying it’s an obvious forgery, it’s full of errors, Maybrick’s not a serious suspect etc etc.

If you think it’s a fake, don’t read the thread or post anything, which will save us all a lot of time.

Otherwise it just falls into the sarcastic ‘you can’t really still believe this is real?’ type of post which doesn’t benefit anyone.

The outcome will be that anyone who’s actually interested in the diary, for whatever reason, will be able to read a thread that may actually be informative & surely that’s beneficial to everyone?

So, what you're saying is that this thread should be a circle-jerk for believers to pat each each other on the back and talk about how dastardly Sir Jim was? lol. Yeah, awesome idea, mate.

This is a thread regarding the diary, and thus Maybrick, and it's not exlusive to people who believe it to be real, and nor should it be. You might as well ask every single thread on here be left to the people who believe in it, which means you cast aside actual debate, something every aspect of the case warrants.

Bit of a silly suggestion, tbh.