25 YEARS OF THE DIARY OF JACK THE RIPPER: THE TRUE FACTS by Robert Smith

[Joshua Rogan]

where does that phrase come from? I know its in the diary but isn't it on the list of items found on one of the victims from a police report???

Yes Abby, it comes from Collard's list of Eddowes' possessions. I believe the diarist also alludes to the other tin boxes on the list containing sugar and tea. But it seems somewhat unlikely that a killer pressed for time would have emptied Kate's pockets, identified the contents, then put them back again.

[Abby Normal]

Yes Sam, and as I've said before this is what alerted me the very first time I read a transcript. It doesn't (to me, at any rate) smack of someone writing 'off the cuff', so to speak, in a fluent, easy manner. I've also said before that I have old hand-written family documents from the second half of the 19th century, and the vast majority are fluent, easy reading, if a little formal in comparison with modern speech and writing patterns. In my experience you'll find High Victorian formal English in serious literarature and official works (for example). But some people see no problem with the Diary's style, and so be it.

While I'm here the phrase that always gave me pause for thought is "Tin Matchbox Empty". Any ideas, anyone?

Graham

where does that phrase come from? I know its in the diary but isn't it on the list of items found on one of the victims from a police report???

[John G]

It's worth noting that "Poste haste" is also spelt wrongly in the diary. The forger certainly had a problem with the very simple word "post".

Maybrick, of course, would have had no such difficulties. He was an educated man and almost certainly attended Liverpool Collegiate Institution, a fee paying school where William Gladstone, who would later become prime minister, gave a speech at the opening ceremony: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ybrick&f=false

[Graham]

As is the idea that even a moderately educated man would say that he "frequented" a pub on a given day, when what he did was "popped into" the pub. To frequent something refers to a pattern of behaviour over time (the clue is in the word), not to a single visit. Nobody ever said, "I think I'll frequent the pub this evening" ; this is yet another example of someone of limited education trying to use a grandiose word in order to give the impression of "oldspeak" and failing miserably.

Yes Sam, and as I've said before this is what alerted me the very first time I read a transcript. It doesn't (to me, at any rate) smack of someone writing 'off the cuff', so to speak, in a fluent, easy manner. I've also said before that I have old hand-written family documents from the second half of the 19th century, and the vast majority are fluent, easy reading, if a little formal in comparison with modern speech and writing patterns. In my experience you'll find High Victorian formal English in serious literarature and official works (for example). But some people see no problem with the Diary's style, and so be it.

While I'm here the phrase that always gave me pause for thought is "Tin Matchbox Empty". Any ideas, anyone?

Graham

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'd like to reply to the deluge but I'm on my phone and it takes me way to long to type. If the hotels Wi-Fi is sorted I'll reply tonight.

[John G]

There was a link to JTRforums some time back in this thread, and I was surprised to see quite a few of the poster's there who were of the opinion that "one off instance", "spread mayhem" etc, had been successfully "dealt" with in favour of the Diary being genuine. One poster in particular, Mr Poster I seem to recall was a regular contributor to this forum. It's some years back now but I remember he made some very good points with regard to Hutchinson being a non- starter with regard to him being JTR. All in all a very level headed poster. In short, it's not only the gullible who have been taken in by this very obvious hoax.

Yes, the diary seems to be such an emotive subject that even some otherwise sensible posters have elected to throw logic out of the window.

And some people seem to find it extremely difficult to just draw a line in the sand, basing their arguments on the dubious premise, "well it could be true. How do you know for definite that it isn't? That's not being objective?"

Well, on the same dubious basis I could assert that Caroline Maxwell butchered MJK, and then challenge posters to prove me wrong!

[Observer]

The reason that obvious forgeries like the Maybrick diary succeed is that there's too many guilable people in the world.

I mean, for a start you'd have to be a total idiot, or at least not one of life's great thinkers, to believe that the first example of the phrase "one-off" appeared in a diary of dubious provenance and that it wasn't used again for almost half a century-at least in written form-and then only in a technical context related to the engineering industry. As I've pointed out already, the odds are tens of millions to one against and you surely don't have to be a mathematical genius to understand the implications of that simple statistic .

There was a link to JTRforums some time back in this thread, and I was surprised to see quite a few of the poster's there who were of the opinion that "one off instance", "spread mayhem" etc, had been successfully "dealt" with in favour of the Diary being genuine. One poster in particular, Mr Poster I seem to recall was a regular contributor to this forum. It's some years back now but I remember he made some very good points with regard to Hutchinson being a non- starter with regard to him being JTR. All in all a very level headed poster. In short, it's not only the gullible who have been taken in by this very obvious hoax.

[John G]

Not to my satisfaction, and a whole lot of other individuals who post here. However I was asking what your thoughts were on the matter.

How on earth can anyone effectively address the issue, as the odds are so great that Maybrick originated the phrase that it would be something of a miracle of it were true.

I mean, "who knows if the moon's a balloon, coming out of a keen city in the sky and filled with pretty people?" But I don't believe that it is!

[Sam Flynn]

The Diary is riddled with this type of thing.

Indeed so.

[Observer]

I think Caz addressed that in a previous poste. oops!

Not to my satisfaction, and a whole lot of other individuals who post here. However I was asking what your thoughts were on the matter.

[John G]

The reason that obvious forgeries like the Maybrick diary succeed is that there's too many guilable people in the world.

I mean, for a start you'd have to be a total idiot, or at least not one of life's great thinkers, to believe that the first example of the phrase "one-off" appeared in a diary of dubious provenance and that it wasn't used again for almost half a century-at least in written form-and then only in a technical context related to the engineering industry. As I've pointed out already, the odds are tens of millions to one against and you surely don't have to be a mathematical genius to understand the implications of that simple statistic .

[John G]

I think Caz addressed that in a previous poste. oops!

Hello,

?

[John G]

No it's not 'evidence' in so far as it's particular to Maybrick as I've no idea which PH's he frequented but it's an historical fact and of course he could have spelled 'post' incorrectly, he did.

So you think Maybrick was so illiterate he couldn't even spell a simple word like "post" correctly?

[Observer]

this is yet another example of someone of limited education trying to use a grandiose word in order to give the impression of "oldspeak" and failing miserably.

The Diary is riddled with this type of thing.

[Observer]

These are just ordinary blokes. 'If' they found an old book, they might think that it could be worth a few quid. What would they do?

Throw it out of the window, and then throw it into a skip. Which is what they allegedly did.