25 YEARS OF THE DIARY OF JACK THE RIPPER: THE TRUE FACTS by Robert Smith

[caz]

It's also occurred to me that the "Eight Little Whores" poem could put a dent in the Old hoaxer theory. I have no doubt that the draft of a poem as seen in the Diary obviously mirrors the "Eight Little Whores " poem. If the diary was penned by an "old Hoaxer" then he would have had to have had access to the letter which was submitted to the police in which the "Eight Little Whores " poem featured. Either that, or he too knew Thomas Dutton, and obtained the information from him. Likely? Most definitely not. The alternative? As I said the hoaxer was using McCormicks book to appear to have been the author of the "Eight Little Whores" poem. Take your pick.

I'm sorry, Observer, but you seem to be attributing to dear old McCormick the invention of the counting rhyme. Otherwise I can't see what your argument is here.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Just musing on how, since I posted the Holocaust denial example, no-one has repeated the terrible argument that just because the Diary is still being talked about that supports the notion that it is genuine or old. Man, that Holocaust denial parallel must have been very effective. An excellent illustration I think. Doubt if there is one better.

I'd be interested to know who was actually repeating the 'terrible argument' you describe before your infinitely more terrible decision to introduce such a tasteless subject by way of 'illustration'. You seem to be the only one now repeating this 'terrible argument' as though several other posters had previously made it, and on a regular basis. I wonder why.

Could you please quote actual posts, where it has up until recently been argued that 'the fact that the diary is still being talked about supports the notion that it is genuine or old' - or do yourself a favour and find something better to whinge about.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

You are very observant, Observer.

I'm surprised at you, Cris.

Or were you being sarcastic?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Hunter

I'll probably get a reply from the Old Hoaxer brigade explaining that the two rhymes are not linked

No explanation required, Observer. You only have to be able to read - and then compare the two. Why let the likes of Paul Feldman do your reading and thinking for you?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

It could well be symptomatic, in that a forger might feel inclined to believe that the "real Ripper" liked to write teasing little rhymes, when in all likelihood he did not. There are contemporary hoaxed letters with rhymes, and there are later books, like McCormick's, with their own almost certainly spurious rhymes. Someone wanting to make their text (be it a diary or whatever) appear to be authored by the Ripper might, after having read the Ripper literature, feel inclined to throw in the odd rhyme here and there "because that's what the Ripper would have done, innit?" A risky strategy, when it's by no means certain that the actual Ripper would have done anything of the sort.

I'm disappointed, Gareth. You really think the author was aiming to make the diary come across as authentic ripper-speak with the help of all those funny little rhymes?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi All,

Following publication of Leonard Matters’ book, Dr. Thomas Dutton wrote to the Daily Mail, 14th May 1929—

“Sir, — Living in Whitechapel (Aldgate) about the time of the Jack the Ripper murders, I took great interest in them from a medical point of view.

“I did not draw the same conclusion as Mr. Leonard Matters, but believe they were committed by a ship’s butcher.

“Having been a surgeon in the Mercantile Marine I have seen these butchers with even greater skill with the knife than many expert operating surgeons. After the murders, going home one night with a black bag in which was a masonic apron, I was accosted by two women who shouted ‘Jack the Ripper.’

“Thomas Dutton, M.D., 25 New Cavendish Street, Harley Street, W.1.”

No mention there of a Liverpool cotton merchant.

Dutton's Chronicles of Crime was a McCormick invention to promote his 1959 Pedachenko theory, and the Eight Little Whores rhyme—one of Jack the Ripper's "effective essays into verse"—was another invention based in part on retired policeman Robert Spicer's 16th March 1931 letter to the Daily Express, alleging that he had arrested Jack in Henage Court. His letter appeared in the wake of the equally bogus Robert James Lees story.

Check the chronology of Spicer's story. It puts the Henage Court arrest after Jack “had committed two murders” [between 31st August and 8th September 1888], but dates the doctor’s release from police custody later the same morning as having taken place in November 1888.

Still no mention of a Liverpool cotton merchant.

The Diary is late 20th Century.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

You are entitled to the opinion you express in your final sentence, and you may well be correct, but as a non sequitur it is an arbitrary conclusion not supported by the remainder of your post. No mention in the diary of Dutton, nor of where its author got the idea for the counting lines.

As the scientists were unable to conclude that ink met paper as late as 1970, it does leave open the possibility that the diary is a late 20th century creation, as in 1951 to 1969. But I would still dispute the argument that its author needed to have read anything written by McCormick.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I contend that Mike Barrett could well have been the author of the Journal. I believe his wife helped him in this endeavour.

Good for you, Observer. You keep believing it if it makes for an easier life.

One final thing. Why do you suppose that Mike Barrett attempted to buy a Victorian diary, with a minimum of 20 pages prior to turning up with the photo album complete with the thoughts of James Maybrick?

One final thing for now. Why do you suppose some people are incapable of thinking for themselves? Because it makes for an easier life perhaps?

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

I'm disappointed, Gareth. You really think the author was aiming to make the diary come across as authentic ripper-speak with the help of all those funny little rhymes?

I do, Caz. Why else would the author have done it? It's pretty clear to me that he/she did, and came a cropper as a result.

By way of analogy, if someone a hundred years from now found a Diary of Maurice Micklewhite, and found the text to contain a fair sprinkling of the phrase "Not a lot of people know that", it would be fair to conclude that whoever wrote the diary believed they were making it sound more authentic by including a phrase that Maurice Micklewhite, i.e. Michael Caine, was known to use. However, if they'd done a bit of research, they'd have found that Caine didn't really use the phrase.

The belief that he did stemmed from when Peter Sellers used the phrase when impersonating Michael Caine on the Parkinson show in the early 70s. Umpteen club and television impersonators seized on it and made it part of their acts, with the effect that "Not a lot of people know that" became indelibly linked with Michael Caine in the public consciousness. Even now, nearly 50 years after Sellers' appearance with Parky, any amateur impression of Michael Caine is almost certain to contain the phrase.

Ditto Saucy Jacky and his love of writing funny little rhymes. That's kind of what he did, innit? Well, maybe not...

[David Orsam]

As I ponder further, I am filled with a warm glow of satisfaction that the person who attempted to make something of the point that the Diary was still being talked about after 25 years, and to whom I addressed my post using the Holocaust denial illustration, has very generously said to me:

"the analogy you drew was perfectly valid"

That person also appears to have understood, as I do, that there is always going to be one person who gets their knickers in a twist at seeing the word "Holocaust", fails to read the post properly, misunderstands the point and affects fake outrage and then goes on and on and on and on and on and on about it non-stop until the very end of time.

[caz]

I have a good idea of who actually wrote the Journal, but moral decency forbids me from offering my thoughts on the matter.

I've never heard 'the total lack of evidence' being described as 'moral decency' before. You live and learn.

I suppose in literary ability Mike Barrett comes some way between the two, all in all though he was capable of composing the diary.

And you know anything at all about Mike's 'literary ability' - how, exactly?

The man was just about capable of composing a legible sick note, Observer. How do I know that? Because I actually took the trouble to observe, and not believe what anyone else - particularly Mike himself - tried to tell me.

Love,

Caz
X

[Kaz]

I've never heard 'the total lack of evidence' being described as 'moral decency' before. You live and learn.



And you know anything at all about Mike's 'literary ability' - how, exactly?

The man was just about capable of composing a legible sick note, Observer. How do I know that? Because I actually took the trouble to observe, and not believe what anyone else - particularly Mike himself - tried to tell me.

Love,

Caz
X

I have another empty bottle here if you want it?

[Observer]

Er, how are those lines from the diary 'an obvious attempt to mimic the "Eight Little Whores" poem', Observer? I do hope you are not trusting Paul Feldman for this piece of nonsensical reasoning. Even Melvin Harris was suckered in by Feldy on this one because it suited his purpose.

Could you quote the lines from the latter which you can see reflected in the former?

Er...How about

"Eight little whores, with no hope of heaven" from the "Eight Little Whores" poem

And

"One whore in heaven" from the Journal.

Furthermore, both mention whores who are killed, and both rhymes incorporate a countdown.

For starters, the diary author is counting up from one and only manages to describe three, while the poem in question counts down from eight.

He incorporates a sequence of numbers though. The poem in the Journal moves on to number four then nothing, the author is attempting to show that there are more verses on the way.

At least the Three Little Maids from School from The Mikado go in the right direction, feature the numbers one to three, and can be compared easily and directly to the diary lines via the following part of the famous G&L song, being performed to a packed house in 1888:

One little maid is a bride, Yum Yum,
Two little maids in attendance come.
Three little maids is the total sum...

One whore in heaven
two whores side by side
three whores all have died
four

A pathetic comparison. Where is there any mention of whores? The Journal rhyme mentions Whores, as does "Eight Little Whores"

Why on earth do you see that as the alternative?

Love,

Caz
X

If it's not a modern hoax then Maybrick is the author of the Journal. However, 99 per cent of us realise it's a modern hoax.

[Observer]

I have another empty bottle here if you want it?

I take it all back Iconoclast, the feeble minded do peruse these threads. I'll try and curb the naysaying.

[Observer]

I'm sorry, Observer, but you seem to be attributing to dear old McCormick the invention of the counting rhyme. Otherwise I can't see what your argument is here.

Love,

Caz
X

I'm not the only one suggesting this.

[Observer]

I'm surprised at you, Cris.

Or were you being sarcastic?

Love,

Caz
X

For your information it was Hunter who first suggested that the "Eight Little Whores" poem is a fly in the ointment as far as the authenticity of the Journal is concerned. And, it seems, he considers, as I do, that it puts a big dent in the your crackpot theory that it's an old hoax.