Why only two threads?

[Harry D]

Daisyhall1,

Jacob Levy is, without doubt, the best suspect currently available to us. Unfortunately, he doesn't really appeal to the imagination. People on CB these days seem more obsessed with some harmless carman on his way to work than they do with a man who, as you quite rightly say, ticks all the boxes. Oh, and a Jewish suspect doesn't seem to go down too favourably either, for racially sensitive reasons.

So far, the only argument I've seen against Levy is that he wasn't named by the police. That, in and of itself, does not prove anything. The police interviewed hundreds of suspects over the course of the investigation and many files have been lost to us. If the police had been onto Mr. Levy, we might not be having this discussion to begin with! Let us not also discount the sound possibility that Jacob Levy was the Butcher’s Row suspect, either.

[Daisyhall1]

Hi Harry.
We have been having a long discussion on him on Ripperology facebook recently.Others will say correctly there is no proof- but there is no proof against any suspect- just a greater burden of substantial circumstantial pointers that put our man to the forefront of suspects.Certainly over Druitt,Kosminski and most others.I find the reticence of the 3 witnesses significant - one in protective custody..His cousin Joseph Hyams Levy walks awayA- yet the suspect is facing him and he can say he is 3 inches taller...? I feel after the Kelly murder he was protected certainly by his family and possibly knowingly by the police.The East End was a powder keg and a Jewish murderer would ignite all sorts of race riots.He was a butcher,knew the area and Middlesex St or Wentworth buildings are next to Goulston St - so a safe bolt hole.I think unless new evidence emerges,nothing will be proven but I feel Levy ticks all the boxes...

[Harry D]

From what we know Lawende was protected by the police,and of the other 2 who appeared to have the same view as Lawende,Levy was 'absolutely obstinate' and seemingly was not under orders not to speak out.Why the secrecy after the inquest? Was it not in the public interest to provide what description there was available from Lawende? The suspect was facing the 3 men so much so he had a red neckerchief -so why did Levy want to get away quickly- there were 3 of them after all? Also Levy was so keen to get away,yet the suspect was facing him and he notices enough to say he was 3 " taller than Eddowes.Does that not suggest he recognised his cousin Jacob?

Hey Daisyhall1,

It stands to reason that Joseph Levy recognised the Ripper that night and knew more than he was letting on. In my mind, he is the key to uncovering the Ripper... if we haven't already.

[Daisyhall1]

From what we know Lawende was protected by the police,and of the other 2 who appeared to have the same view as Lawende,Levy was 'absolutely obstinate' and seemingly was not under orders not to speak out.Why the secrecy after the inquest? Was it not in the public interest to provide what description there was available from Lawende? The suspect was facing the 3 men so much so he had a red neckerchief -so why did Levy want to get away quickly- there were 3 of them after all? Also Levy was so keen to get away,yet the suspect was facing him and he notices enough to say he was 3 " taller than Eddowes.Does that not suggest he recognised his cousin Jacob?

[Wickerman]

No I disagree. Harris and Levy are being interviewed by the press, so quite obviously they've not been sworn to secrecy by the police.

The apparent fact the press are attempting to interview them has no bearing on them being sworn to secrecy, if indeed that was the case.
The proof is in the pudding, the press are getting nowhere.

It is Joseph Levy we're discussing, the relative of the subject of this suspect thread. And as I pointed out, you've de-contextualized the meaning of "idiotic secrecy" as used in this news article. It's a press complaint against the police, not a reflection on the status of the people they're interviewing.

There is no secrecy without the police.

Here's that section again:

The fact remains, however, that the police, in imposing their idiotic secrecy, have a allowed a certain time to elapse before making the partial description these three witnesses have been able to give public, and thus prevent others from acting upon the information in the event of the murderer coming under their notice.

The idiotic secrecy referred to is the police not releasing the description to them, the press.

So you think there was a limit to the police imposed secrecy.
Three witnesses exit the same club at the same time, see the same couple, and yet only one is requested to be quiet.
Ok.

You asked me to show where the police found Levy uncooperative and I answered on your terms. It doesn't exist. I've asked you to show where the police requested Levy not to say anything to the press, and instead, you've referred to a press clipping where he's being interviewed. By the the press. You can't show me where the police requested he not speak to the press. That much is patently obvious anyway.

Roy

The assertion was all yours, my words were "very likely", based on the press article alone.
I thought I made that clear the last time.

[tji]

Hi Wicker

Crossed wires here I think, I don't believe he needed to know the escape routes from the prostitutes, I believe he knew the area quite well due to living there his whole life.

I do think he needed to escape though, I think standing around the murder scene holding a kidney would contribute significantly to him being caught 'red handed' ......


Tracy

[Roy Corduroy]

No I disagree. Harris and Levy are being interviewed by the press, so quite obviously they've not been sworn to secrecy by the police. It is Joseph Levy we're discussing, the relative of the subject of this suspect thread. And as I pointed out, you've de-contextualized the meaning of "idiotic secrecy" as used in this news article. It's a press complaint against the police, not a reflection on the status of the people they're interviewing.

Here's that section again:

The fact remains, however, that the police, in imposing their idiotic secrecy, have a allowed a certain time to elapse before making the partial description these three witnesses have been able to give public, and thus prevent others from acting upon the information in the event of the murderer coming under their notice.

The idiotic secrecy referred to is the police not releasing the description to them, the press. It obviously has nothing to do with whether or not Harris or Levy are saying anything of value to them in the interview. The fact they are being interviewed at all speaks for itself.

You asked me to show where the police found Levy uncooperative and I answered on your terms. It doesn't exist. I've asked you to show where the police requested Levy not to say anything to the press, and instead, you've referred to a press clipping where he's being interviewed. By the the press. You can't show me where the police requested he not speak to the press. That much is patently obvious anyway.

Roy

[Wickerman]

Okay, thanks, Jon. So you find it very likely a blanket request for secrecy made to all three witnesses made by the City of London Police....

Yes I do.
I also see it as standard procedure for the police to caution all witnesses in the event they are called to appear at an Inquest.

And Lawende was sequestered because, in my opinion, he was the only one who could describe the suspect.

Another instance comes to mind.
Mrs Prater spoke to the press on Nov. 10th, oddly her press statement bore little resemblance to her subsequent Inquest testimony.

A result of a police caution? - I suspect so.

[Roy Corduroy]

In the same paragraph we read, regarding Lawende (Levander), "having imposed a pledge on him of secrecy".
Harris then claims the other two know no more than he does but he is also telling the press nothing of value, and Levy being obstinate. Followed by reference being made to the police "imposing their idiotic secrecy".

As I said, "very likely", all are complying to the same police request.

Okay, thanks, Jon. So you find it very likely a blanket request for secrecy made to all three witnesses made by the City of London Police. Here's the entire paragraph, The Evening News Oct 9 -

In Deeke (sic) street, opposite Mitre square, there is a club called the Imperial, the members of which are exclusively Jews. On the Sunday morning of the murder, between 1.30 and 1.40, three of the members named respectively Joseph Levy, butcher, 1 Middlesex street, Aldgate; Joseph Levander, commercial traveller in or manufacturer of cigarettes, whose business premises are in St. Mary Axe, corner of Bury street; and Mr. Henry Harris, furniture dealer, of Castle street, Whitechapel, left the club. They then noticed a couple - man and woman - standing by the iron post of the small passage that leads to Mitre square. They have no doubt themselves that this was the murdered woman and her murderer. And on the first blush of it the fact is borne out by the police having taken exclusive care of Mr. Joseph Levander, to a certain extent having sequestrated him and having imposed a pledge on him of secrecy. They are paying all his expenses, and one if not two detectives are taking him about. One of the two detectives is Foster. Mr. Henry Harris, of the two gentlemen our representative interviewed, is the more communicative. He is of opinion that neither Mr. Levander nor Mr. Levy saw anything more than he did, and that was only the back of the man. Mr. Joseph Levy is absolutely obstinate and refuses to give us the slightest information. He leaves one to infer that he knows something, but that he is afraid to be called on the inquest. Hence he assumes a knowing air. The fact remains, however, that the police, in imposing their idiotic secrecy, have a allowed a certain time to elapse before making the partial description these three witnesses have been able to give public, and thus prevent others from acting upon the information in the event of the murderer coming under their notice.

It is Lawende alone who is sequestered and has a secrecy pledge imposed, according to this report. You have decontextualized "idiotic secrecy" to mean something it doesn't. It refers to the police not releasing the descriptions to the public via the press. A scoop denied them by the blue meanies. Harris and Levy are obviously available for the interview, but Mr. Levy in particular is being obstinate. He seems not to relish the whole experience in the least bit.

That's how I read it anyway,

Roy

[Wickerman]

So you show me, where do the police make this request?

Roy

In the same paragraph we read, regarding Lawende (Levander), "having imposed a pledge on him of secrecy".
Harris then claims the other two know no more than he does but he is also telling the press nothing of value, and Levy being obstinate. Followed by reference being made to the police "imposing their idiotic secrecy".

As I said, "very likely", all are complying to the same police request.

[Wickerman]

Again I disagree, the fact that the prostitutes were dead would not have helped him escape,

He didn't need any help to escape. It is well accepted that the killer had to have been seen on the streets, quite simply no-one knew what the man who just passed them had done.

Why do you think he needs help to escape?

[tji]

Hi Wicker

I'm not taking issue with 1-5, similar lists have been offered in connection with various suspects. They may or may not be relevant, and yes, at the end of the day Levy may be the one.
And so may any of the others much debated on these boards. I don't see Levy as being more likely, just as likely.

I can't see how you can say that Wicker, you are saying that Jacob is no better a suspect as Tumbelty or Prince Albert or Gull to name but a few? I definitely think he is more likely than those and most other suspects.

Oh no, he doesn't 'need' to be an outsider, I see no reason to think he was, and the prostitutes knew the patrols, it was in their best interest to do so. The killer had no need to.

Again I disagree, the fact that the prostitutes were dead would not have helped him escape, I think they would be a little unwilling to go with him if he quizzed them about the best way to escape after killing them!!

This point was observed at the time, that the victims are willing accomplices in their own demise.

Yes I don't disagree with this, unfortunately the type of work prostitutes do means that they are high risk for many things.

As for being sane or insane, a contemporary quote provides my thoughts in a nutshell:

"The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane" observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

Yes but the point that has been made with Jacob is that in 1888 Jacob probably wasn't completely insane, he would be feeling the effects of the tertiary syphilis but he would have had lucid periods, he still had a few year until it killed him - time line normally shows around 5 years - the onset being 1885/6 when he was first arrested and imprisoned. It was downhill form there on but he should have still been functional in 1888. In my older posts or the article I have posted a more indepth description of this.

And quite possibly Harry did not mean to write "witness", which strictly speaking suggests, "in his role as a witness", therefore in discussions with police or at the inquest.

No, I meant you assumed Harry was on about the Police witness when he never specified Police or Reporter. I was pointing out you were stating a false premise on an assumption.

Tracy

[Roy Corduroy]

City of London Police

While you are here, be good enough to show where Levy was uncooperative with the police.
Where do they make this complaint?

I told you, nowhere.

So, to my mind, Levy was doing the correct thing in saying nothing to the press, very likely in compliance with a request from police.

So you show me, where do the police make this request?

Roy

[Wickerman]

Hi Wicker
Not sure why you think 2 and 3 are arbitrary to be honest, they don't fit into the all the suspects of the time, therefore they do need to be pointed out.
.
.
As for 1, 4 and 5 not being relevant I am not really sure how to answer that, besides to ask what type of suspect you are looking for ...

Hi Tracy.
I'm not taking issue with 1-5, similar lists have been offered in connection with various suspects. They may or may not be relevant, and yes, at the end of the day Levy may be the one.
And so may any of the others much debated on these boards. I don't see Levy as being more likely, just as likely.

According to your post he must have to be a stranger to the area, but has knowledge of the patrols, be perfectly sane but can almost decapitate and disembowel women as soon as look at them. Have no knowledge of knives but be able to cut up and dissect women in a short amount of time?

Oh no, he doesn't 'need' to be an outsider, I see no reason to think he was, and the prostitutes knew the patrols, it was in their best interest to do so. The killer had no need to.
This point was observed at the time, that the victims are willing accomplices in their own demise.
As for being sane or insane, a contemporary quote provides my thoughts in a nutshell:

"The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane" observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

Well in Harry's defense he never mentioned being the Police in No 6 post. He was just questioning the circumstances between Joseph and Jacob.

And quite possibly Harry did not mean to write "witness", which strictly speaking suggests, "in his role as a witness", therefore in discussions with police or at the inquest.

There is little value for the theory in someone being uncooperative with the press, many people snubbed the reporter, that in itself suggests nothing.
Though, if Levy had been uncooperative with the police, that would cause concern, and I think the list was created to shows points of concern.

[tji]

Hi Wicker

Some of the points are, in my opinion, arbitrary (Nos. 2, 3), they could be applied to any number of locals, and some may or may not be relevant (Nos. 1, 4, 5).

Not sure why you think 2 and 3 are arbitrary to be honest, they don't fit into the all the suspects of the time, therefore they do need to be pointed out.

As for 1, 4 and 5 not being relevant I am not really sure how to answer that, besides to ask what type of suspect you are looking for - According to your post he must have to be a stranger to the area, but has knowledge of the patrols, be perfectly sane but can almost decapitate and disembowel women as soon as look at them. Have no knowledge of knives but be able to cut up and dissect women in a short amount of time?

So my interest was on No. 6, where the suggestion is made that Levy was being uncooperative with the police (ie; as a witness), and therefore being deceptive, because he had something to hide that concerned him greatly.

Well in Harry's defense he never mentioned being the Police in No 6 post. He was just questioning the circumstances between Joseph and Jacob.

Therefore, point No. 6 (post 1), that Levy was being deceptive because he was overly concerned about the family relationship, is based on a false premise.

Well, without being pedantic, yeah it is, the false premise you put forward as Harry stating something he didn't.
However I will state that I disagree with your assumption, I think there is a high chance that Joseph would have some reluctance.

Levy was not an uncooperative witness, just uncooperative with the press, prior to his appearance at the Inquest.

[/QUOTE]

You can't state this as fact Wicker, only assume it.

Tracy