Jacob Levy asylum records

[GregBaron]

Land of the Giants...

Height is very much related to childhood nutrition...recent studies of poor Guatemalan Maya immigrants into the USA claim that average adult male height in their communities increased by 4" between the 1970s (5ft 2" in S.America) and 2010s (5ft 6" in the USA)...this is attributed to better childhood nutrition and improved healthcare...over a mere forty years...

I recall reading an account (though frustratingly I can't recall from where) of Glaswegian infantrymen in WWll anecdotally being of far more "runty" appearance than their counterparts elsewhere...even then it was attributed to poor childhood nutrition.

In the early 19th Century the average height of working class citydwellers was reckoned to be as much as 22cm (over 8 1/2 inches!) less than their upper crust counterparts - This was based on a study comparing Sandhurst students (upper class) with Maritime School students (lower class).

Given the chronically bad conditions in the East End of 1888 I don't suppose, therefore, that 5ft 3ins was looked at as particularly short in JtR's Whitechapel!

All the best

Dave

Thanks Dave, this is the sort of corroboration I was looking for. I agree that 5'3" wouldn't have been far off the average in Whitechapel at the time and the weights would be equally low.

If we brought an Eastender through a time warp and dropped them in an
American high school today, they'd think they were transported to the land of the Amazons....



Greg

[Errata]

Uhm, I am not sure this is accurate. Mary Kelly's bed was not that wide, about what I would imagine is about a twin size today looking at the photos though I don't have exact measurements in front of me, I admit. I am sitting next to a bed now, in a chair, putting me well under 5'2 and I can reach from one end to the other without problem. And I've got significant striking force to slash a throat, even if she were on the far end of the bed. Even if the bed were queen size, it is an assumption to state that "she was too far away from him to use the knife". She might have been right on the edge. Not saying I think Levy is the ripper, just saying, I don't think this particular argument against him has merit.

The bed looks to be a double, but either way, that's not what I'm talking about. There is only so far a person can lean over before reaching the literal tipping point. Standing at the bed with your legs pressed against it, you have I think 20 degrees of lean before you faceplant. And there is math that would let me calculate height based on assumed bed width, but I should never be left alone with math. The shorter the person the less distance they can cover. I'm sure Levy would be able to bend over and touch her, but I don't that he could get far enough past her to make a clean throat cut.

But you know what? Not the point. All I'm saying is that certain assumptions about method would need a rewrite. Which would also be true if Levy was 6'4. None of which makes him more or less the Ripper. So I think I've derailed this enough.

[Cogidubnus]

Height is very much related to childhood nutrition...recent studies of poor Guatemalan Maya immigrants into the USA claim that average adult male height in their communities increased by 4" between the 1970s (5ft 2" in S.America) and 2010s (5ft 6" in the USA)...this is attributed to better childhood nutrition and improved healthcare...over a mere forty years...

I recall reading an account (though frustratingly I can't recall from where) of Glaswegian infantrymen in WWll anecdotally being of far more "runty" appearance than their counterparts elsewhere...even then it was attributed to poor childhood nutrition.

In the early 19th Century the average height of working class citydwellers was reckoned to be as much as 22cm (over 8 1/2 inches!) less than their upper crust counterparts - This was based on a study comparing Sandhurst students (upper class) with Maritime School students (lower class).

Given the chronically bad conditions in the East End of 1888 I don't suppose, therefore, that 5ft 3ins was looked at as particularly short in JtR's Whitechapel!

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

5'3"

Consider what shoes and a hat does for witness sightings as well. Could make him appear up to 5'5" or so. As far as being around six feet I think is unlikely. That 5 5-6 range or abouts seems a decent enough bet for "JTR". Something around average.

[GregBaron]

How high was he...?

Uhm, I am not sure this is accurate. Mary Kelly's bed was not that wide, about what I would imagine is about a twin size today looking at the photos though I don't have exact measurements in front of me, I admit. I am sitting next to a bed now, in a chair, putting me well under 5'2 and I can reach from one end to the other without problem. And I've got significant striking force to slash a throat, even if she were on the far end of the bed. Even if the bed were queen size, it is an assumption to state that "she was too far away from him to use the knife". She might have been right on the edge. Not saying I think Levy is the ripper, just saying, I don't think this particular argument against him has merit.

Completely agree Ally. We can't say anyone was too small to slit someone's throat in a small hovel with a small bed in a small corner. I see no reason why Toulouse Lautrec couldn't have pulled it off.

And Levy was 5'3" Errata, don't take that angry inch away from him. As someone pointed out, he was taller than most of the victims. Perhaps that's why he pulled Stride by the scarf, to get her to slicing height......

In your height researches, keep in mind that Levy was a Dutch Jew (I think)..Not sure if that precludes him from the Ashkenazi gene pool...?

The tallest people in the world today are in Denmark. Can anyone explain that...the fish perhaps?


Greg

[Ally]

So if Levy is the Ripper, that didn't happen. a 5'2 guy cannot lean over Mary Kelly's bed and cut her throat. It was too wide, and she was too far away for him to use a knife with any strength.

Uhm, I am not sure this is accurate. Mary Kelly's bed was not that wide, about what I would imagine is about a twin size today looking at the photos though I don't have exact measurements in front of me, I admit. I am sitting next to a bed now, in a chair, putting me well under 5'2 and I can reach from one end to the other without problem. And I've got significant striking force to slash a throat, even if she were on the far end of the bed. Even if the bed were queen size, it is an assumption to state that "she was too far away from him to use the knife". She might have been right on the edge. Not saying I think Levy is the ripper, just saying, I don't think this particular argument against him has merit.

[Errata]

I think you’re confusing 21st century McDonalds’s denizens with the people of Whitechapel. A guy 5’7” and a buck-eighty is stout, well-nourished, borderline fat…..again not a Whitechapel build…




I think the average man was beneath 5’8”. I would guess 5’6” or 5’7” and a buck fifty was about average. I doubt we could find this sort of information statistically. I would expect the wealthier West Enders to be fatter and maybe even taller – not many Oscar Wilde’s trolling Whitechapel, at least in my humble opinion…

I imagine Tumblety at 5'11" ish was a standout and 6'7" Fleming a mistake...


Greg

Sorry sorry typo. 150.

I almost imagine Fleming getting a similar reaction to Godzilla on the streets of Tokyo.

As it happens, and I don't think it's a surprise to anyone, the British are not a tall people. They aren't short either. Ireland throws out some impressive giants every so often. Eastern Europeans tend to be about 2 inches taller than the British. Especially Russians. I don't really know why, possibly some adaptation to cold. Africans average about 4 inches more in height, which is interesting because they have both the tallest and the shortest populations in the world. But the immigration boom in England skewed the national average taller. Levy as an Eastern European Jew is just tiny. I'm not going to go into why he would be remarkably tiny, unless you are really interested in Ashkenazi Jewish phenotypes. It's interesting that his people are skewing the numbers towards a taller national average, and he's really small.

Actually, that just reminded me of something. I'm going to research it and get back to this. There may be a genetic thing at play here.

[GregBaron]

No happy meals...

I think we all picture a 6 foot guy weighing about 200 pounds.

Not I Errata, you could count guys this big on one hand in Whitechapel at that time..

Actually this is where Eastern Europeans blow the average so we have a range rather than an average. Males were 5'6 - 5'8 roughly 180 pounds. Females were 5'0-5'3 roughly 120 lbs. Last I checked.

I think you’re confusing 21st century McDonalds’s denizens with the people of Whitechapel. A guy 5’7” and a buck-eighty is stout, well-nourished, borderline fat…..again not a Whitechapel build…

And a lot of that is based on the height of the average man, which at the time was 5'8. Half a foot shorter changes a lot. So I'm not saying his height rules him out as the Ripper. I'm saying that those of us who tried to build a recreation of the murders have to redo quite a bit in order to accommodate a 5'2 killer.

I think the average man was beneath 5’8”. I would guess 5’6” or 5’7” and a buck fifty was about average. I doubt we could find this sort of information statistically. I would expect the wealthier West Enders to be fatter and maybe even taller – not many Oscar Wilde’s trolling Whitechapel, at least in my humble opinion…

I imagine Tumblety at 5'11" ish was a standout and 6'7" Fleming a mistake...


Greg

[Errata]

In reading this thread, I caught your comment here, Errata. "Temporary Warder" refers not to the job being "temporary" or part-time (although it MIGHT be), but rather being posted in the Temporary Ward.

BTW, what was 'average' height and weight for males or females in London, c1888?

Actually this is where Eastern Europeans blow the average so we have a range rather than an average. Males were 5'6 - 5'8 roughly 180 pounds. Females were 5'0-5'3 roughly 120 lbs. Last I checked.

[C. F. Leon]

"From the fact that he attempted suicide by strangulation at Gaol & that a Brother committed suicide and Insanity is hereditary in his family I consider
him suicidal & insane."

This just kills me. He attempts suicide, which is not in and of itself any kind of indicator of sanity. However, because his brother committed suicide and members of his family have been insane, then he gets a diagnosis of insanity.

The only person who mentions violence is a Temporary Warder (and I'm not exactly sure how that is a temporary gig, but whatever). ...

In reading this thread, I caught your comment here, Errata. "Temporary Warder" refers not to the job being "temporary" or part-time (although it MIGHT be), but rather being posted in the Temporary Ward.

BTW, what was 'average' height and weight for males or females in London, c1888?

[Errata]

Nope - I see someone about 5 foot 3 inches, but fairly muscular - masculine, charming, but dominant - nothing there to rule out Levy (!) - who I see as a good suspect either for the first two, or more. even if pushed, the lot....

It's not about ruling him in or out. It's about ruling certain scenarios in or out. A guy without a significant height advantage cannot bear a woman to the ground. I mean, he could do a leg sweep or actually choke her out, but he can't force her to the ground by pushing down on her. It's not a strength thing it's a leverage thing. So if Levy is the Ripper, that didn't happen. a 5'2 guy cannot lean over Mary Kelly's bed and cut her throat. It was too wide, and she was too far away for him to use a knife with any strength. So instead he has to be on the bed, not standing next to it. There's also some problems with the typical assumptions made about Chapman's mutilation, because she was blocked off on two sides. A tall man can kneel on one side of her and get it all done, but a shorter man has to move around some. So then we gotta figure out how he moved given the stairs, the wall, all that.

There are those of us who put a lot of thought into literally how he did what he did. Like I gotta be honest, the who has never interested me as much as the how and the why. What length blades he had to use, where he sat, what he did first. And a lot of that is based on the height of the average man, which at the time was 5'8. Half a foot shorter changes a lot. So I'm not saying his height rules him out as the Ripper. I'm saying that those of us who tried to build a recreation of the murders have to redo quite a bit in order to accommodate a 5'2 killer. That's all.

The only thing about Levy that could possibly rule him out (and I say possibly) was that his profession would mean that he would know what knife was appropriate for what task. Bringing an 8 inch blade to a three inch blade job is a very odd choice for a butcher. Possibly Freudian, but still odd. It would not expect that of a butcher or a surgeon. I would expect that of a soldier or a fisherman (since fish have very little anatomical similarity to humans, and soldiers don't deal in mutilation typically). I don't think the knife work in the murders point to a butcher. I've gone into it elsewhere, and I'm not going to go into it here. It doesn't prove he's not the Ripper. It's just odd. Otherwise, I am comfortable putting him in with the other 30,000 men who could have been the Ripper by virtue of location, habit, motive, or interest.

[Cogidubnus]

Nope - I see someone about 5 foot 3 inches, but fairly muscular - masculine, charming, but dominant - nothing there to rule out Levy (!) - who I see as a good suspect either for the first two, or more. even if pushed, the lot....

[Errata]

Hi Errata
You Describe Sarah levy as appearing dominant. After jacobs imprisonment in 1886 Sarah keeps trading from their butchers business,it is only after his death that she and her family move to New street, so, personally myself, i see he as more strong than dominant. She has to be controlling due to jacobs mental state, to control his actions,surely.
I don't think Jacobs size has a lot to do with the attacks. Firstly, jacob could be charming, he had helped to run a successful business. I believe Jack/Jacob would engage the victim in conversation first, and how many prostitutes would get used to seeing Jacob strolling round the streets late at night?
"Don't worry about him,pet, he's always around, he's harmless"
And butchers are STRONG. From a young age Jacob would have been throwing dead meat about, anything from 20lbs in weight to 100lbs+,daily,often. Gripping a knife fo hours on end develops forearm and hand strenght(you don't want to arm wrestle a butcher). So when the time came it would be no contest against an under-developed street walker.
Keep well
jimi

She refers to him ruining her business. Not his business, which would be more in keeping with the attitudes of the day (and would have been a polite fiction), not "our" business, but hers. And it was her business. But out of keeping with the time, she didn't even nominally hand it over to her husband. She kept it hers. And there was probably a very good reason for that, but he was within his rights to seize it if he wanted to. And he didn't. Sadly it is not true that weak people discover strength when things get hard. A submissive personality does not step up when her husband goes batshit. They go down like the Titanic. Happens all the time.

Another thing that commonly happens is that broken people seek dominant people. Possibly the most popular relationship archetype in the teenage years. He may have married her because she was a dominant personality. He would have seen her as an anchor in his life. The person who keeps everything stable because he can't. It is by no means a bad thing if she was dominant in their relationship. They had kids, and they needed some stability. I imagine she was a rather brilliant single mom. If Levy was manic, and it reads like he was in the end, he would have HATED being told what to do. When you are manic the entire world is populated with people trying to "bring you down, man". Trying to stifle your genius. Any ties a person has are incredibly suffocating to someone who is manic. He was probably a nightmare to live with.

That he appears to be a Kleptomaniac also suggests he was a submissive personality. Kleptos steal to exert control. It gives them legitimate tension as opposed to the random tension they feel all the time that they can't explain. It's like anorexia. Dominant girls don't get anorexia. Submissive girls do. And it has nothing to with popularity, it's when a girl cannot stand up for herself or fix a situation, she controls whatever she can. Like caloric intake. Dominant girls fight. Often inappropriately, but they fight.

I imagine there is a way to test the theory. If she was a submissive personality, she would have remarried almost immediately (and Judaism provides ample opportunity for that). If she waited a few years, that would say she wasn't afraid of doing it alone, and probably had a dominant personality. Not that it really matters. It's a picture I have in my head.

And I don't doubt Jacob could kill people. I think anyone can. But you gotta admit that when you pictured these attacks happening in your head, the attacker was not a little guy. I think we all picture a 6 foot guy weighing about 200 pounds. A guy that size could grab a woman by the throat and put her on the ground in a heartbeat. A guy Jacob's size might have to jump up in order to reach her throat . I'm saying if the Ripper was 5'2, we all to repaint that picture in our head, and start making some assumptions based on a little guy, not based on some random athlete of your choice. It would mean he did not overpower them in a conventional way, which usually means coming down actually over them and pushing them to the ground. He couldn't do that unless he was perched on a fence or something, and leaped at them like a wrestler from the top rope. Everything we assume about what happened during the attacks changes if the assailant is the same size as the victim, or smaller. Which means we have to rewrite the fight scenes.

[Jimi]

Profiling

Hi Greg
I do agree with what you say about human nature,i've just stated myself poorly. Of course chase and JTR could have had the same mental state. What I am thinking is more the developmental stages. How long would it take JTR to be afflicted than say Chase? Or Chase than say Breivik? I just think its something we need to consider.
Once again I agree. I certainly didn't mean to put profiling down, like you i think its a very wothwhile tool or guide and it can certainly help narrow down a suspect pool.
Keep well
Jimi(Neil)

[Jimi]

Dominant?

Hi Errata
You Describe Sarah levy as appearing dominant. After jacobs imprisonment in 1886 Sarah keeps trading from their butchers business,it is only after his death that she and her family move to New street, so, personally myself, i see he as more strong than dominant. She has to be controlling due to jacobs mental state, to control his actions,surely.
I don't think Jacobs size has a lot to do with the attacks. Firstly, jacob could be charming, he had helped to run a successful business. I believe Jack/Jacob would engage the victim in conversation first, and how many prostitutes would get used to seeing Jacob strolling round the streets late at night?
"Don't worry about him,pet, he's always around, he's harmless"
And butchers are STRONG. From a young age Jacob would have been throwing dead meat about, anything from 20lbs in weight to 100lbs+,daily,often. Gripping a knife fo hours on end develops forearm and hand strenght(you don't want to arm wrestle a butcher). So when the time came it would be no contest against an under-developed street walker.
Keep well
jimi