Replacing Aaron Kosminski with Jacob Levy?

[tanta07]

do we have definitive proof of this? I've heard it mentioned but not as a definitive statement of truth.

Definitive proof of the Seaside Home identification? No, not at all. It's always been a hard-to-verify story. I've just been chewing on the idea that if it actually took place st all, it makes more sense with Levy.

Or do you mean definitive proof that Joseph and Jacob were related? The genealogy is laid out in the Jacob the Ripper book.

[Columbo]

Definitive proof of the Seaside Home identification? No, not at all. It's always been a hard-to-verify story. I've just been chewing on the idea that if it actually took place st all, it makes more sense with Levy.

Or do you mean definitive proof that Joseph and Jacob were related? The genealogy is laid out in the Jacob the Ripper book.

yep the genealogy part of it.

[Abby Normal]

I just finished reading "Jacob the Ripper," which makes the case for Jacob Levy, and I found that for all the things we tend to use as bullet points to make the case for Aaron Kosminski, could actually be more accurately applied to Levy.

- Kosminski was said to have been institutionalized after the murders and died in an asylum soon thereafter.

That's clearly not true of Kosminski, since he lived on many years after his initial admission into an asylum. However, it DOES fit Levy, who was institutionalized for the final time in 1890 and then died in 1891.

- Kosminski was identified by a witness, a witness to later refused to testify against him.

While everything about the "seaside home identification" is dubious, the whole scenario would make more sense with Levy rather than Kosminski. Especially if the witness used for the identification was Joseph Hyman Levy, who was one of three men who saw a man talking to Catherine Eddowes shortly before her death. Joseph Hyam Levy was Jacob's cousin, so it would be understandable if he was reluctant to identify his own cousin as the infamous murderer.

- The police were monitoring Kosminski's movements.

It's possible the police were monitoring both, but a police note about watching a Jewish butcher who lives in Butcher's Row obviously fits Levy far more accurately than it does Kosminski.

- Kosminski was institutionalized with homicidal tendencies.

People have had a hard time squaring this circle, because the scant records kept on Kosminski paint him more as a nearly-catatonic schizophrenic who would barely get out of bed. Levy's records, on the other hand, mention "violence" rather frequently.


Anyway, I just found it to be food for thought. Can it be that if you just lift out "Aaron Kosminski" in a lot of theories and replace it with "Jacob Levy" that Levy actually fits the mold a lot better?

Hi Tanta
Interesting. Good post! Couple of things.

- Kosminski was said to have been institutionalized after the murders and died in an asylum soon thereafter.

That's clearly not true of Kosminski, since he lived on many years after his initial admission into an asylum. However, it DOES fit Levy, who was institutionalized for the final time in 1890 and then died in 1891.

yup-agree

- Kosminski was identified by a witness, a witness to later refused to testify against him.

While everything about the "seaside home identification" is dubious, the whole scenario would make more sense with Levy rather than Kosminski. Especially if the witness used for the identification was Joseph Hyman Levy, who was one of three men who saw a man talking to Catherine Eddowes shortly before her death. Joseph Hyam Levy was Jacob's cousin, so it would be understandable if he was reluctant to identify his own cousin as the infamous murderer.

again agree. However, i dont think its definitely been established joeseph Hyam levy was his cousin/relation? I know they made a case for it in the book, but i dont know. I would love to hear the genealogical researcher experts we have on this site chime in on it.

- Kosminski was institutionalized with homicidal tendencies.

People have had a hard time squaring this circle, because the scant records kept on Kosminski paint him more as a nearly-catatonic schizophrenic who would barely get out of bed. Levy's records, on the other hand, mention "violence" rather frequently.

Kos threatened his sister with a knife and attacked an attendant with a chair. he was also mentioned by MM as being violent/homicidal tendencies. thats good enough for me. also, Kos was also lucid enough in 89/90 time period to attend court, so he may have been not so far gone yet in his mental illness to make him an unsuitable possible punter to his victims.

Anyway, I just found it to be food for thought. Can it be that if you just lift out "Aaron Kosminski" in a lot of theories and replace it with "Jacob Levy" that Levy actually fits the mold a lot better?

again interesting idea, but the fact is Kos was named not only by swanson but also MM. and since swanson and Anderson were close, its a strong probability that anderson was talking about Kos. I think they got the right guy in terms of the ID. and unless the relation is confirmed between the Levys , he remains an interesting character, but alas, IMHO only just another in a long list of "crazy jews" people have tried to fit up as the ripper, but have no real connection to the case.

That being said its a intriguing theory, and def warrants further research!

[tanta07]

Hi Tanta
Interesting. Good post! Couple of things.



yup-agree



again agree. However, i dont think its definitely been established joeseph Hyam levy was his cousin/relation? I know they made a case for it in the book, but i dont know. I would love to hear the genealogical researcher experts we have on this site chime in on it.



Kos threatened his sister with a knife and attacked an attendant with a chair. he was also mentioned by MM as being violent/homicidal tendencies. thats good enough for me. also, Kos was also lucid enough in 89/90 time period to attend court, so he may have been not so far gone yet in his mental illness to make him an unsuitable possible punter to his victims.



again interesting idea, but the fact is Kos was named not only by swanson but also MM. and since swanson and Anderson were close, its a strong probability that anderson was talking about Kos. I think they got the right guy in terms of the ID. and unless the relation is confirmed between the Levys , he remains an interesting character, but alas, IMHO only just another in a long list of "crazy jews" people have tried to fit up as the ripper, but have no real connection to the case.

That being said its a intriguing theory, and def warrants further research!

Yes, I think there's plenty of reasons to keep Koz st the top of the suspect list. I'm just rolling around the idea that some items in the Koz column may have been put their by mistake and actually belong in the Levy column.

Full disclosure: Koz is my #1 guy, followed by Chapman. The Jacob the Ripper book just made me reconsider some things that didn't align 100% with Koz, but align with Levy.

[The Baron]

Funny enough, This whole Jacob Levy the ripper idea is based solely on the mad jew theory of Anderson and Swanson, yet the supporters choose someone other than the one who had been named!


Its like I cannot hang this murderer he is too short to reach the rope, I will chose someone taller and hang him instead!



The Baron

[tanta07]

Funny enough, This whole Jacob Levy the ripper idea is based solely on the mad jew theory of Anderson and Swanson, yet the supporters choose someone other than the one who had been named!


Its like I cannot hang this murderer he is too short to reach the rope, I will chose someone taller and hang him instead!



The Baron

Not sure I follow.

Seems like the "mad Jew theory" is at least partly based on the police actively monitoring at least 2 mad Jews, Kosminski and Levy.

Unless the note about the police monitoring a "Jewish butcher in Butcher's Row" was intended to refer to Kosminski, even though he doesn't fit any of those criteria (except being Jewish of course).

That's actually the entire point I'm bringing up here: the book made me realize that some of the items used against Koz, even though they didn't fit very well, may have actually been about a different suspect.

[Barnaby]

I really like the idea of somehow that Levy and Kosminiski got mixed up and Levy was the suspect. Or maybe both were suspects and put under surveillence and the murders stopped but Kosminski sort of took the historical blame.

One thing (besides the obvious fact of high-ranking police officials actually naming Kosminski) that on the surface seems more consistent with Kosminski is Harry Cox's 1906 recollection of shadowing a supect. I'm trying to make this fit with Levy but it seems to align better with Kosminski.

On the other hand, there is Robert Atholl's (1946) very late account of Robert Sagar's "memoirs" which describes shadowing a suspect in Butcher's Row, which fits Levy better. Maybe both men were under surveillance.

[Scott Nelson]

If there was a Kosminski mix-up, the other guy is likely to have been Cohen, IMO. Don't dismiss the brilliant theorizing of the late Martin Fido.

[The Baron]

Kosminski was mentioned by Swanson and Macnaghten, there is no mix-up there.

The only way Cohen theory may survive is if Cohen was also a Kosminski, and Mckenzie was not a ripper victim.

No way I would say.


The Baron

[etenguy]

The "Seaside home witness refused to give testimony" story makes a lot more sense if the witness is Joseph Levy and the suspect is Jacob Levy.

Hi Tanta07

I am not sure that does make more sense. Assuming the seaside identification took place, it makes little sense if the two people involved were indeed Joseph and Jacob Levy. If Joseph recognized his cousin as the man with Eddowes then he would know before attending the ID who it was and if he had no intention of IDing his cousin, would not have agreed to go in the first place. If he did not recognise the man as his cousin with Eddowes, then he would not ID him as such at the seaside home.

Whatever else you find compelling about the case against Levy - this is not the strongest reason for considering him IMHO.

[Elamarna]

Wrong post

[Scott Nelson]

Kosminski was mentioned by Swanson and Macnaghten, there is no mix-up there.

The only way Cohen theory may survive is if Cohen was also a Kosminski, and Mckenzie was not a ripper victim.

Barron, are there any Victorian examples of Kosminskis changing their last name to Cohen? Just by way of examples...not that somebody like David Cohen could be shown to be related to a Kosminski?

[rjpalmer]

If there was a Kosminski mix-up, the other guy is likely to have been Cohen, IMO. Don't dismiss the brilliant theorizing of the late Martin Fido.

Hi Scott. Are you suggesting the 'mix up' was made by the police themselves, or are you suggesting the 'mix up' is among modern commentators and Aaron Kosminski was never a suspect?

[The Baron]

Barron, are there any Victorian examples of Kosminskis changing their last name to Cohen? Just by way of examples...not that somebody like David Cohen could be shown to be related to a Kosminski?

Scott, you did a great work researching the Kosminskis in Whitechapel, but I still think this is a field that needs further exploration imho.

Not that I support this theory, that Cohen was a Kosminski, but If they called themselves Abraham, I don't see why they wouldn't have used the name Cohen when they committed their brother to the Asylum, and both share the first name Aaron too.

Had Fido found any example of Kaminskis changing their name to Cohen?

Also I want to point that not the whole Family needed to change their last name, quite the opposite, if this theory has any merit, the family would have wanted to distance themselve from the suspect, so using a name that was not directly linked to them, other than Kosminski or Abraham, in the same fashion John Doe was used elsewhere for example.


The Baron

[Scott Nelson]

Hi Scott. Are you suggesting the 'mix up' was made by the police themselves, or are you suggesting the 'mix up' is among modern commentators and Aaron Kosminski was never a suspect?

Hi RJ,

I think it would have been the police who made the mistake because of the 2-1/2 year period between the confinement of Cohen and Aaron Kosminski.