Jacob Levy

[Abby Normal]

No problem Abbster..........no reason to cease and desist..

I agree with your point about suspects/persons of interest..

I have no idea if the ripper is Jew, Gentile or Zoroastrian....

I hope Jimi and Tracey and others are able to dig up more about this guy...

Perhaps you have coined the term we should use....a very intriguing fellow...


Greg

A VIF indeed!

[Paddy]

To make previous post clearer

Mordacai Levy and his wife Sarah had 6 children, all born St Boltolph Middlesex

Two of the children were

Hyam (a butcher) born 1810 who married Francis and their son was Joseph Hyam Levy
Joseph (a butcher) born 1821 who married a Catherine and their son was Jacob Levy b1856
The census all pan out but have to find marriages

Which oooops! Means they were cousins...
.......
There used to be a site that had the great synagogue marriages online, anybody remember what it is ?

Pat.......................

[Paddy]

Court case

Not sure if this has been mentioned?
From Old Bailey April 5th 1856

MORRIS PHILLIPS (30), MOSS WOOLF (16), and JACOB LEVY (30) , Stealing 14 lb. of meat of Hyman Sampson, the master of Phillips and Woolf.

In it it states :Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. I cannot say whether these men are rival butchers; they are both Jews—when he said that he did it for a lark Mr. sampson said "You will be locked up for it"—he valued the meat at 6d. per lb.—this is Petticoat Lane, and there are other butchers in the street—it was about the time a man would go to market.

This Jacob was born 1856 , was a butcher and worked in Petticoat Lane area as a butcher. I shuould think it is the right one.
He got 12 months imprisonment

Pat...........

[Michael W Richards]

Waow...
People are worse than Anderson here around.
After Schwartz saving the bacon of a Jewish club member in Berner Street, here is Hyam saving the Ripper's bacon in Mitre Square.

What a double event.

We are looking for motives David, it has little if anything,...well maybe to Anderson,.. about Ethnicity, other than perhaps the geographical ramifications of a murder spree within a mile and the population profile of that area.

The club did need to appear clean, their continued operations relied on that....and who knows about Mitre?

Cheers David.

[Paddy]

Jacobs father Joseph in 1841

So far this looks like Jacob Levys father Joseph b 1821, with mother Sarah at 38 Petticoat Lane. This fits with the details I posted previously.
Hyam (Joseph Hyam Levys father) had already left home unfortunately.

These names fit exactly to the family previously posted

Pat

[tji]

One of the downsides of Levy as a suspect is that it is entirely possible that the only motive ever attributed to him is based on flawed thinking. It is true that he is listed as having died from the neurological effects of syphilis. General paresis of the insane I think? The problem is that he was hospitalized for a psychiatric disorder earlier. Much earlier than can be explained by syphilis. He also never infected his wife. Without infecting his wife he could not have infected his children. And we know they had sex because children were born during the time period in question. So the facial deformity aspect of the motive clearly isn't true. Nor does it make sense for him to kill prostitutes for giving him syphilis if he never had syphilis. And all things being even, if he did not infect his wife whom he continued to have sexual relations with, odds are he didn't have it. Odds are he had psychological and neurological issues completely unconnected with syphilis, but there was no other diagnosis available to him. So if that's true... why would he be killing prostitutes?

I don't mean to sound short Eratta but did you ever bother to read the article we wrote on Jacob?
This is the same debate we had on the other Jacob thread in which I pointed out the problem with your answer. If you feel the need to know the answer maybe you could just read the answer I gave you last time?

Where did his other brother live? And anything on their Mum?

Hi Digger (if I may call you that)

His brother who lived in Wentworth Street was Isaac Levy, he died of T.B in 1901, he lived at 124-130 Wentworth buildings at the time of the murders.

His mam was named Caroline and she died in May of 1888, we did wonder if this could have been a stressor for Jacob.

May I ask if you have read the Jacob the ripper? thread in the suspects part, we have gone into more detail in there. Also we wrote an article in the Ripperologist that gave more details of his stays in the asylums.

Which is then a completely different motive than the syphilis revenge story. So he had enough "issues" to land him in an asylum twice. But was he violent? Mental issues manifest differently for everyone. "Invincibility" mania is not the same as "Hair-trigger temper" mania. So if he killed because of mental illness, there would be signs. So were there signs?

I don't inherently object to Levy being a murderer, I just object to him being a murderer for a reason that doesn't make a lot of sense.

My arguments for him being a suspect seem to make a lot more sense than your arguments against him. We do not say he is a suspect solely because he had syphilis, this is just one of the hard facts we have put forward for Jacob being a suspect.

Upon my recent, very much so, delve into the subject, it would depend on which stage he was in at the possible varying times. His wife could have, how you say, continually dodged the bullet until he was no longer infectious. If so I should say she was a lucky duck at least in one way. Although I think Syphilis had no bearing on the murders. People make choices. Compulsion of that nature is a rarity. Like most people who murder, I think the killer(s) we are searching for made that decision. Morality is like so much makeup, applied.

I agree Digger. On the Jacob updated thread I have in fact gone into detail on syphilis and how it can affect people.
It is quite conceivable that Jacob caught the syphilis before marrying Sarah and would have been out of the contagious phase. This would mean that he then had a chance of contracting Neurosyphilis, which would reach it's peak years later, this final stage last on average of 5 years. Jacob's documented deterioration? 1886-1891

We didn't mention this in the article as it is my theory alone, Neil leans towards a different theory.

I would imagine the syphilis may have contributed to his way of thinking, but I also believe it wouldn't have 'controlled' his thoughts at this time.

[tji]

While this seems quite reasonable Abby the problem is there are no valid suspects....there's a few conflicting and contradictory names thrown about by supposed authorities......there's a few conflicting and contradictory descriptions uttered by unreliable witnesses...............

We've got nothing.......zero.....nada...zilch....again if you want to only allow the word suspect to names mentioned by authorities I suppose you could argue that.........but my view is that the perp or perps are probably none of the above...........there is no solid connection of anyone to the crimes.................therefore deciding who is a suspect versus a person of interest is a zero sum game in my view...

Greg

Great post Greg, I agree, if we had solid information on a suspect then we would have 'solved the case' years ago

Indeed. I have wondered whether he were either Sagar or Cox's man. And it would make more sense for the City CID to watch him instead of the alternative.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, how's you?

Yeah this is just another tease when it comes to Jacob, so near.......yet so far.
Butcher's Row is along the bottom of Middlesex Street.

Hi Abby

(mucked up the quote box sorry)

We have never stated Jacob was a suspect because he was a crazy Jew, that is not our aim, we say he is a suspect because of all the points he has against (some kindly labelled by Greg on his previous post)


Hi Paddy

Just had a quick glance and found a tree that has Mordicai (isaac) Levy and Sarah his wife and family.
Children stated as Hyam 1810
Esther 1814
Elias 1816
Moss 1818
Joseph 1822
Elizabeth 1826

All born at Aldgate St Botolph Middlesex.
So Joseph Hyam Levy could likely have been Jacobs uncle......
As there are no source records and I have not found any yet, it would have to be verified. But looks highly likely..
Pat...

Some great research here, however this is actually an incorrect tree, that has been posted about, these are actually 2 seperate names/people.

Mordecai Levy did actually marry a Sarah Levy who was born around 1777 but this is not our Sarah. I believe this Mordecai is actually a baker. (this is from memory so apologies if not 100% correct)

Our family is Isaac Levy who married Sarah Levy born 1777 Amsterdam,
The children are the correct ones. There are 2 threads Jacob the ripper? and Jacob updated that have the information in the suspects thread.

I kinda think the notion of him killing Eddowes and going home to deposit his spoils then going the next street over and leaving the apron and GSG as a warning to cousin or maybe brother. Someone suggested before that the message may have been directed at a specific individual. Interesting indeed.

Hi Digger

Well complete hypothesis on my part but a fun fact (that have yet to corroborate) Hyam Sampson, who was the person Jacob stole from in 1886, owned a butcher's in Wentworth Street prior to this. The area the GSG is in would be round the area where Hyam's butchers shop was.

[lynn cates]

L A

Hello TJ. Thanks. Hope you are well also.

"Yeah this is just another tease when it comes to Jacob, so near.......yet so far.
Butcher's Row is along the bottom of Middlesex Street."

Indeed. And I still place a good bit of faith in the wandering "Leather Apron" tale.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Solid VIF...

Great post Greg, I agree, if we had solid information on a suspect then we would have 'solved the case' years ago

Thanks tji....I think you and your colleagues have done a great job with
your Jacob research. I hope more is forthcoming...........I'm very happy
to use Abby's term here, a very intriguing fellow (VIF) indeed...

I don't mean to sound short Eratta but did you ever bother to read the article we wrote on Jacob?

Your all's Ripperologist article should be required reading by all on this thread..
A real doozy that one...


Greg

[Errata]

I don't mean to sound short Eratta but did you ever bother to read the article we wrote on Jacob?

No I didn't. I don't subscribe to the newsletters, and the articles are not published here on the site. My money has to go to other things. Every penny. And I don't mean to sound short in return, but I don't think you understand some pretty basic things. If I ask a question, it's because I don't know the answer. It's not a set up. I don't know the answer. So if you want to get huffy about my not reading an article you published, that's fine. But you also have the option of just answering the question. Even if you've answered it before. It isn't that I didn't "bother" to read it. It's that I am not in a position to read it.

And here is the other basic thing I don't think you understand. There are a lot of assumptions made about every suspect, or even what the Ripper "had" to be like that frankly are crap. Millions of people had syphilis. Why was this the only guy killing in revenge? Less than 2% of the mentally ill population are ever violent. About 15% of the sane population are. Why is Jack mentally ill? There are preconceptions I object to. Now if Jacob Levy is the Ripper, then I assume there are reasons other than a possible syphilitic infection and a mental illness. What I object to is the idea that he HAS to be the Ripper because he was in an asylum and died of syphilis. As if the Ripper HAD to have syphilis and HAD to be crazy. I assume you have a well reasoned theory on Levy that relies on far more than assumptions about crazy people and sexually transmitted diseases. I'm fine with that. What I am not fine with is theories that rely on nothing but that. Because we both know that's nowhere near enough.

Because I challenge an assumption based on rumor and misinformation does not mean that a: that the suspect is innocent and b: that I'm challenging YOU. It means I'm challenging false preconceptions. Don't tell me Jack was crazy, this guy was crazy, ergo this guy was Jack. Tell me why Jack was crazy. Tell me why this crazy guy bucks the odds and becomes a killer. Give me something more than grossly incorrect assumptions on mental illness. In other words, give me something specific. YOU can do that, I assume. Many others can't. And if they can't then their assumptions deserve to be challenged, even if they end up being correct.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks tji....I think you and your colleagues have done a great job with
your Jacob research. I hope more is forthcoming...........I'm very happy
to use Abby's term here, a very intriguing fellow (VIF) indeed...



Your all's Ripperologist article should be required reading by all on this thread..
A real doozy that one...


Greg

Hi Greg and tji
I agree. Great article and I am going to go back and read again. What issue was that in again?

[GregBaron]

Sorry it flew into a black hole...

Hi Greg and tji
I agree. Great article and I am going to go back and read again. What issue was that in again?

Can't help you there Abby, I had a laptop blow up a while back, but I expect tji or Jimi or one of our fine Ripper editors can point you to the source..

It's been a while, seems like a year or two...


Greg

[Cogidubnus]

Levy in Rip

It was in Ripperologist 124 I believe

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo!

I think the most compelling aspect of any of this is that his brother lived where the apron was found. I have always thought the most likely way it got there was that the murderer deposited it there. Thanks for all the hard work. I've been waiting on it. Hope you gots lots more to come in the future.

[tji]

Hi Errata

That is fair enough, money is tight for a lot of us and I certainly didn't mean to infer people had to read the article to understand Jacob, the majority of the information is on the boards it is just a lot more concise in the article.

And I don't mean to sound short in return, but I don't think you understand some pretty basic things. If I ask a question, it's because I don't know the answer. It's not a set up. I don't know the answer. So if you want to get huffy about my not reading an article you published, that's fine. But you also have the option of just answering the question. Even if you've answered it before. It isn't that I didn't "bother" to read it. It's that I am not in a position to read it.

Yes Eratta I do understand the basic things, we have put information onto the boards numerous time with regards to Jacob, some with accounts from the time and yet you still try and tell us it is wrong.
It is stated in his medical records, from a Doctor of the time, who I would assume treat numerous syphilis victims, that he died from syphilis and yet you still tell us it is wrong.

Numerous times we have corrected you on your take of Jacob's syphilis and yet you still say he isn't a good suspect based on your fact....your facts not the ones we have researched.

I am not huffy about you not reading the article - your choice - but I believe if you are going to question everything you would want to be sure you knew as much about it as the person who wrote it, but maybe that is just me.

Of course we don't mind people asking us questions or even questioning our theories, but when the same person questions us on the same things numerous times when we have answered numerous times it gets a little old.

And here is the other basic thing I don't think you understand.

Wow I don't seem to understand a lot here do I?

There are a lot of assumptions made about every suspect, or even what the Ripper "had" to be like that frankly are crap. Millions of people had syphilis. Why was this the only guy killing in revenge? Less than 2% of the mentally ill population are ever violent. About 15% of the sane population are. Why is Jack mentally ill? There are preconceptions I object to. Now if Jacob Levy is the Ripper, then I assume there are reasons other than a possible syphilitic infection and a mental illness. What I object to is the idea that he HAS to be the Ripper because he was in an asylum and died of syphilis. As if the Ripper HAD to have syphilis and HAD to be crazy. I assume you have a well reasoned theory on Levy that relies on far more than assumptions about crazy people and sexually transmitted diseases. I'm fine with that. What I am not fine with is theories that rely on nothing but that. Because we both know that's nowhere near enough.

Yet again something that we have answered before, we haven't put Jacob forward because he had syphilis, our initial interest was because he may have been related to Joseph. The syphilis find came later. If you had read the post Greg did a few pages back you would see some of the reasons he interests people. The fact that he had syphilis AND died in an asylum are bonuses. (well, obviously not for poor Jacob )

So as we do have a well reasoned theory that relies on more than assumptions I don't see the problem?

Because I challenge an assumption based on rumor and misinformation does not mean that a: that the suspect is innocent and b: that I'm challenging YOU. It means I'm challenging false preconceptions. Don't tell me Jack was crazy, this guy was crazy, ergo this guy was Jack. Tell me why Jack was crazy. Tell me why this crazy guy bucks the odds and becomes a killer. Give me something more than grossly incorrect assumptions on mental illness. In other words, give me something specific. YOU can do that, I assume. Many others can't. And if they can't then their assumptions deserve to be challenged, even if they end up being correct.

[/QUOTE]

I don't take it personally if people question Jacob's validity as Jack, it is what make people good researches, what I do take personally is when they question our research. Question the fact that Jacob is Jack, but question the fact that he had syphilis over and over when asylum records show he had it and died from it seems a little redundant.

Tracy