Blood on Charles Lechmere

[Jon Guy]

The point is that there is no reason to think that he did, since there were no organs missing. You can cut a body open without outting your hands inside it, but you cannot take out a heart, a uterus, a kidney or any other organ without doing so. Its all very simple.

Hi Christer

By the beginning of the 20th Century most Pickfords men were proficient at organ removal. According to my sources it was two man job, at least, depending on the organ and it`s location.

[Fisherman]

That may be how you look at it, Fish, but this is how you present it to the world:

And even if there was, this was a carman working for a goods depot that freighted meat on an everyday basis. Realistically, each and every one of the carmen had some blood on their clothes.

It seems we may be able to agree that meat was a major commodity of the Broad Street depot. Therefore, it would be reasonable to expect the carmen there to quite frequently freight meat. Ergo, they all would risk to get blood on their clothes.

It really isnīt rocket science.

Nor is it rocket science that none of these things can be conclusively proven. Maybe there were carters who did not freight meat. Maybe there was not.

As it stands, I think it is realistic to suggest that the carmen could all have had more or less specks and smears of blood, fresh or old, a little or a lot, on their clothes.

We can go on discussing this for years, or we can just leave it for what it is - a topic impossible to describe in any detail. And like I said, it is of little consequence for the theory as such.

All you can use it for is to try and lead on that Ingram is wrong (unproven) and somehow exploit that for a wish to damage the theory in any wy you can.

And that is of course your prerogative, should it be your wish.

[caz]

Reconstructing history is a hard game, Colin - if he had run into the arms of a police, we would perhaps have had his execution on record.

Far worse if a policeman had come along instead of Robert Paul while Lechmere was still with his victim, with knife in hand or pocket. If he was able to put any distance at all between them before running (or walking swiftly) 'into the arms of a police' he could have ditched the knife and there'd be nothing to connect him with the scene. No visible blood on him according to your theory, was there? "I was just hurrying because I'm late for work". They'd have to know about the body by then, or they'd have no grounds for detaining him.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jon Guy]

Far worse if a policeman had come along instead of Robert Paul while Lechmere was still with his victim, with knife in hand or pocket. If he was able to put any distance at all between them before running (or walking swiftly) 'into the arms of a police' he could have ditched the knife and there'd be nothing to connect him with the scene. No visible blood on him according to your theory, was there? "I was just hurrying because I'm late for work". They'd have to know about the body by then, or they'd have no grounds for detaining him.

Or he could have run straight into a policeman and said "quick, come with me, I think there`s been another `orrible murder"

[caz]

Andy Griffiths said that there was no way he was going to run, wioth patrolling officers all around him.

Then why not just walk smartly? Why does the alternative to hanging around, waiting for whoever may come along next, have to involve 'running', like he's just done something criminal? Doesn't show much imagination, does it?

With patrolling officers all around him he took an awfully big chance that Robert Paul would not turn out to be one of them, and would not even suspect the woman had just been knifed to death.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Caz: Far worse if a policeman had come along instead of Robert Paul while Lechmere was still with his victim, with knife in hand or pocket.

Yes indeed. But as I keep telling you, Caz: serial killing is a risky game. You cannot join in it without accepting that factor.

If he was able to put any distance at all between them before running (or walking swiftly) 'into the arms of a police' he could have ditched the knife and there'd be nothing to connect him with the scene.

Yes, and if he was not able to, he would be hung.

No visible blood on him according to your theory, was there?

You have gotten that a bit wrong, I īm afraid. There may well have been blood visibe on him - but since nobody searched him for it, we will never know. It was apparently not something that Mizen saw, at any rate, and he saw enough to be able to conclusively ID Lechmere at the inquest. By the way, that should go to tell us all how risky it would have been for Lechmere not to come forward at all.

"I was just hurrying because I'm late for work". They'd have to know about the body by then, or they'd have no grounds for detaining him.

Yes, very true. And it is equally true to say that IF they knew about the body, he would have been hung.

I am not certain what you are trying to do here - provide evidence that running would have been the better option? If that is what you are trying to achieve, you should weigh in that if he was the killer, he managed to get away with it, sparing himself the toilsome running.

So I really cannot see how you can win. But buy all means, try away, Caz. Whatever amuses you.

[caz]

Or he could have run straight into a policeman and said "quick, come with me, I think there`s been another `orrible murder"

Quite so, Jon. And no doubt they'd have found Robert Paul leaning over the woman by then. Bingo!

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Or he could have run straight into a policeman and said "quick, come with me, I think there`s been another `orrible murder"

Really, Jon...

[Jon Guy]

Really, Jon...

Christer

I thought it was a fair point ?
As Caz noted, if Cross he rushed away from the scene and ran straight into a copper he would have done what most of the "finder`s" did. Run off for a policeman - Reeves/Tabram, Davis/Chapman, Diemschutz/ Stride, and Bowyer/ Kelly.

But you`ve ignored my Pickfords organ removal joke ?

[caz]

Caz: Far worse if a policeman had come along instead of Robert Paul while Lechmere was still with his victim, with knife in hand or pocket.

Yes indeed...

Ah, so you don't agree with Andy Griffiths's assessment, that the killer would have considered the risk of running into a patrolling officer outweighed the risk of staying put and having a patrolling officer finding him with his victim and the murder weapon?

Interesting. You seem to be saying that the killer would
have taken the riskier option because:

...as I keep telling you, Caz: serial killing is a risky game. You cannot join in it without accepting that factor.

Yes, and if he was not able to, he would be hung.

Hanged, Christer. I don't know how well hung he'd have been.

You have gotten that a bit wrong, I īm afraid. There may well have been blood visibe on him - but since nobody searched him for it, we will never know. It was apparently not something that Mizen saw, at any rate, and he saw enough to be able to conclusively ID Lechmere at the inquest. By the way, that should go to tell us all how risky it would have been for Lechmere not to come forward at all.

Have you a source for this? Surely all we know is that Mizen learned by the time he gave his evidence (which was before Lechmere gave his) that the man who had informed him about Nichols went by the name of Cross. He may not have known the man from Adam, if and when he first saw him at the inquest. And how stupid would the killer have had to be, when conning his way past Mizen, potentially bloodied, to enable him to 'conclusively' ID him on seeing him again?

Yes, very true. And it is equally true to say that IF they knew about the body, he would have been hung.

Hanged.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Christer

I thought it was a fair point ?
As Caz noted, if Cross he rushed away from the scene and ran straight into a copper he would have done what most of the "finder`s" did. Run off for a policeman - Reeves/Tabram, Davis/Chapman, Diemschutz/ Stride, and Bowyer/ Kelly.

But you`ve ignored my Pickfords organ removal joke ?

None of Reeves, Davis, Diemschitz and Bowyer - supposedly - had a bloody knife stashed on themselves, Jon. And a man running silently from a murder spot differs from one like Diemschitz who cried his heart out yelling "Police!"

On the other hand, IF he had done a runner, it would fit the pattern if he bluffed when encountering a PC, I will give you that.

Missed out on the organ removal company - good one!

[caz]

To begin with, there need not have been even the smallest speck of blood on him. And even if there was, this was a carman working for a goods depot that freighted meat on an everyday basis. Realistically, each and every one of the carmen had some blood on their clothes. They would have had other matters to speak about, methinks.

I must have missed the evidence for this, Christer. Could you please provide the sources for:

a) Lechmere working at this particular depot

b) This particular depot freighting unpackaged fresh meat on an everyday basis in the second half of 1888

c) Each and every carman at this depot routinely handling unpackaged fresh meat and therefore 'realistically' having some blood on their clothing

Thank you.

Love,

Caz
X

Can you prove to me that he did not kill Nichols? I must have missed the evidence for that.

Talk about futile exercises!

I don't recall insisting Lechmere did not kill her, Christer.

However, your own assertions about his work practices are here for all to read again, and it appears to have been a futile exercise asking you to support them.

I'll take it you can't do that, shall I?

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Caz: Ah, so you don't agree with Andy Griffiths's assessment, that the killer would have considered the risk of running into a patrolling officer outweighed the risk of staying put and having a patrolling officer finding him with his victim and the murder weapon?

Andy Griffiths never said anything at all about having a patrolling officer arrive at the scene while Lechmere was still there. Leave the goalposts where they are, please.

Interesting. You seem to be saying that the killer would
have taken the riskier option because:

Nope. It is YOU who are peddling the idea that staying put was the risker option. I work from the assumption that he weihed his options and found the bluff option the better one. Risk will have played in, but so may the sheer joy of fooling somebody have.

Hanged, Christer. I don't know how well hung he'd have been.

Hanged it is.

Have you a source for this? Surely all we know is that Mizen learned by the time he gave his evidence (which was before Lechmere gave his) that the man who had informed him about Nichols went by the name of Cross. He may not have known the man from Adam, if and when he first saw him at the inquest. And how stupid would the killer have had to be, when conning his way past Mizen, potentially bloodied, to enable him to 'conclusively' ID him on seeing him again?

Donīt you think it would have been more stupid to turn away from Mizen as he spoke to him, Caz? I do.
We know that Mizen saw enough to make him guess that he was dealing with a carman, so clearly, he could see his clothes. And when you can see the clothes, there will be enough light to see the face too.
The whole charade about how Lechmere could have skipped over the inquest in the certainty that he could not be ID:d is outright stupid, Iīm afraid. Lechmere would have made his call depending on what he thought about how identifiable he was to Paul and Mizen. The fact that the papers do not establish how much the participants of the drama saw of each other should not encourage us to think that the lack of information is the same as a lack of observation.
I really hope you are able to see this even if you personally work in almost total darkness.

[Fisherman]

Caz: I don't recall insisting Lechmere did not kill her, Christer.

I donīt recall you insisting that he did, Caz.

However, your own assertions about his work practices are here for all to read again, and it appears to have been a futile exercise asking you to support them.

I'll take it you can't do that, shall I?

You can take it any way you like, Caz. If you think he worked at the London Zoo, Iīm fine with that.

[dixon9]

fisherman you say he played the bluff option(wouldn't liked to have played Cross at poker) as surely he double bluffed.(1) with Paul (2)then with PC Mizen.After what he had just 'done' he certainly was one cool killer