What happened to Lechmere......

[Jon Guy]

We have always known that there are more or less silent shoes, Jon - it is no rocket science and nothing new....

I know it`s nothing new, Christer, I`ve been saying it for years but here is a Victorian resident of Spitalfields confirming it for us.

We also know that the shoes of the working class of London were often hobnail shoes or hard soled shoes, making a lot of sounds....

Indeed, now we have contemporary proof that the old one`s could be silent.

We also know that to become old shoes, they need to have been new shoes first.....

Do you think many of the people of E1 were wearing new shoes ?

We also know that hobnailed shoes stay loud shoes throughout......

Possibly, but did everyone wear hob nailed boots ?

And Cox´ expression was not to be taken literally.

I think it was, Christer.

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer



Mary Ann Cox was only feet away from Mr Blotchy and didn`t hear a thing.
Her words were "made no noise".

So, we now know that no footsteps would necessarily be heard, aside from a policemans, as PC Neil and Mrs Mortimer illustrate.

We have always known that there are more or less silent shoes, Jon - it is no rocket science and nothing new.
We also know that the shoes of the working class of London were often hobnail shoes or hard soled shoes, making a lot of sounds.
We also know that to become old shoes, they need to have been new shoes first.
We also know that hobnailed shoes stay loud shoes throughout.

And Cox´ expression was not to be taken literally. It is impossible to be soundless when walking. Not that it matters very much for the whole picure, but there you are.

There is of course also the possibility that Cox was making things up, at least to some extent, to get her fifteen minutes of fame. The suggestion that the man she saw moved without a sound latches on nicely to the conceptions of the time about what the killer was like.
And Blotchy goes through quite a metamorphosis over time...

[Jon Guy]

Hi Christer

They would ALL make a sound, Jon. You do, even if you walk in socks or barefoot. But perhaps not as loud a sound as Thain..

Mary Ann Cox was only feet away from Mr Blotchy and didn`t hear a thing.
Her words were "made no noise".

So, we now know that no footsteps would necessarily be heard, aside from a policemans, as PC Neil and Mrs Mortimer illustrate.

[Fisherman]

Yes, Thain was a policeman in policeman`s boots.

That being my point in posting Mary Ann Cox`s comments, Christer.
Anyone wearing old boots (which will be most of the male inhabitants of Whitechapel) wouldn`t necessarily make a sound when walking.

They would ALL make a sound, Jon. You do, even if you walk in socks or barefoot. But perhaps not as loud a sound as Thain.
The point is that you can of course lower that sound by walking softly and slowly. But both Paul and Lechmere were hurrying along.

You can hear people in sneakers from afar in quiet streets - if they are hurrying.

[Jon Guy]

Mmmm. And Neil heard Thain from 130 yards away.

Yes, Thain was a policeman in policeman`s boots.

That being my point in posting Mary Ann Cox`s comments, Christer.
Anyone wearing old boots (which will be most of the male inhabitants of Whitechapel) wouldn`t necessarily make a sound when walking.

[Fisherman]

Never understood how such a non-starter has generated so much debate. Then again people on CB tend to hang on every word Pierre says, so that puts things into perspective.

Nichols was killed in Buck's Row.
Lechmere had to pass Buck's Row on his way to work.
Hence Lechmere found the body.

Occam's Razor, yo.

And that goes for anybody who was with Nichols, the killer included. Nobody killed her.

But if somebody DID kill her, then it was somebody who had no reason to be there.

That´s how a killer is recognized - he never kills people on roads he has logical reasons to use.

[Fisherman]

Hi Bill

This is what Mary Ann Cox said at the Kelly inquest of Mr Blotchy as he and Mary Kelly walked through the archway into Millers Court

"The man`s boots must have been old for although the place was very silent at that time he made no noise when walking up the court with the deceased"

Birmingham Daily Post
Nov 13th 1888

Mmmm. And Neil heard Thain from 130 yards away.

[Fisherman]

Trevor Marriott: "of hearing footsteps running away"

From Fisherman, 5 Sep 2015:
Number 3: As Lechmere approaches the body, he has Robert Paul walking right behind him, thirty to forty yards away, so they are on the same, absolutely silent street. In spite of this, neither man professes to have seen or heard the other. And we know that John Neil heard his colleague Thain walk past the Buck´s Row/Brady Street crossing – 130 yards away! Was it a coincidence that Paul did not hear Lechmere? Or was that due to Lechmere not having walked in front of Paul, but instead having been engaged in cutting away at Nichols as Paul entered the street?

I have also been thinking about this. In the Inquest statements only Cross and Neil mention hearing footsteps. Looking at Buck's Row, both sides of the street were enclosed by two storied buildings.

Could it be that when when they were walking, their own footsteps echoed and therefore they couldn't hear clearly anyone else walking, either behind them or in front of them? ie the street isn't silent, because their own footfalls produced sound. And Buck's Row may have had some sort of "canyon" effect from the surrounding buildings, amplifying the sound? I know that in a local walk I do that runs under a road my footsteps take on a strange, echoey sound that sounds like someone is walking behind me! But that is a sound I'm not used to, but these people walked the streets all the time....

Notice both Cross and Neil in stating they heard footsteps were standing still at the time.... And Paul couldn't have heard (or should I be saying "would have had trouble hearing") Cross because he was walking behind him, and Cross would have had trouble hearing anyone leaving the murder site in front of him?

In the current days of shoes, runners and whatever people wear these days it must be hard to imagine what it was like walking around in hobnail boots. If we can still get hobnail boots, I wonder if it is worth "re-enacting" the scene?

Cheers
Bill

I have walked through many a narrow street, listening to other people walking the same street at different distances. Of cpurse, todays shoes are normally silent, but not all of them. And if they are not, you will easily hear other people walking from very far away. A pair of high-heel pumps can be heard from hundreds of yards away.
But don´t take my word for it - try it yourself, and you will see.

[Fisherman]

The main facts are not in dispute are they? Polly Nichols was murdered in Bucks Row and her throat was cut, and minor wounds were inflicted to her abdomen. Her time of death cannot be established.However you have invented your own scenario which surround those facts to fit your own theory.

There is no more evidence to show Lechmere killed Nicholls than there is to point to the following who were all involved in the finding of victims who had been murdered in similar circumstances to Lechmere finding Nicholls

John Reeves who found Martha Tabram
John Richardson who found Chapman

and not forgetting George Morris Night watchman in Mitre Square who might have popped out and murdered Eddowes and then popped back in.

or Pc Thompson finding Coles, was he the killer and did he make up the story of hearing footsteps running away

or Pc Andrews finding the body of Mckenzie was he her killer

How do they differ from Lechmere what makes Lechmere a murder suspect and none of the aforementioned?

If you are relying on the false name I would argue that if he were guilty and was giving a false name for that reason then why not simply make up a name?

I am interested to know if this theory was yours from the outset or did Edward bring it to you and you have taken up the mantle? Just interested to find out who is the puppet and who is the puppet master ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I can only tell you who is the ignorant one. If you had kept track of the work done on Lechmere over the years, you would know - as indeed do I and many others out here - who introduced the idea that the carman was the killer.
It is utterly typical that you have no idea even of this very basic knowledge. Unknowing, uninformed and unable to understand the very simplest matters of the case.

[Harry D]

Never understood how such a non-starter has generated so much debate. Then again people on CB tend to hang on every word Pierre says, so that puts things into perspective.

Nichols was killed in Buck's Row.
Lechmere had to pass Buck's Row on his way to work.
Hence Lechmere found the body.

Occam's Razor, yo.

[Jon Guy]

Trevor Marriott: "of hearing footsteps running away"

From Fisherman, 5 Sep 2015:
Number 3: As Lechmere approaches the body, he has Robert Paul walking right behind him, thirty to forty yards away, so they are on the same, absolutely silent street. In spite of this, neither man professes to have seen or heard the other. And we know that John Neil heard his colleague Thain walk past the Buck´s Row/Brady Street crossing – 130 yards away! Was it a coincidence that Paul did not hear Lechmere? Or was that due to Lechmere not having walked in front of Paul, but instead having been engaged in cutting away at Nichols as Paul entered the street?

I have also been thinking about this. In the Inquest statements only Cross and Neil mention hearing footsteps. Looking at Buck's Row, both sides of the street were enclosed by two storied buildings.

Could it be that when when they were walking, their own footsteps echoed and therefore they couldn't hear clearly anyone else walking, either behind them or in front of them? ie the street isn't silent, because their own footfalls produced sound. And Buck's Row may have had some sort of "canyon" effect from the surrounding buildings, amplifying the sound? I know that in a local walk I do that runs under a road my footsteps take on a strange, echoey sound that sounds like someone is walking behind me! But that is a sound I'm not used to, but these people walked the streets all the time....

Notice both Cross and Neil in stating they heard footsteps were standing still at the time.... And Paul couldn't have heard (or should I be saying "would have had trouble hearing") Cross because he was walking behind him, and Cross would have had trouble hearing anyone leaving the murder site in front of him?

In the current days of shoes, runners and whatever people wear these days it must be hard to imagine what it was like walking around in hobnail boots. If we can still get hobnail boots, I wonder if it is worth "re-enacting" the scene?

Hi Bill

This is what Mary Ann Cox said at the Kelly inquest of Mr Blotchy as he and Mary Kelly walked through the archway into Millers Court

"The man`s boots must have been old for although the place was very silent at that time he made no noise when walking up the court with the deceased"

Birmingham Daily Post
Nov 13th 1888

[Billiou]

Trevor Marriott: "of hearing footsteps running away"

From Fisherman, 5 Sep 2015:
Number 3: As Lechmere approaches the body, he has Robert Paul walking right behind him, thirty to forty yards away, so they are on the same, absolutely silent street. In spite of this, neither man professes to have seen or heard the other. And we know that John Neil heard his colleague Thain walk past the Buck´s Row/Brady Street crossing – 130 yards away! Was it a coincidence that Paul did not hear Lechmere? Or was that due to Lechmere not having walked in front of Paul, but instead having been engaged in cutting away at Nichols as Paul entered the street?

I have also been thinking about this. In the Inquest statements only Cross and Neil mention hearing footsteps. Looking at Buck's Row, both sides of the street were enclosed by two storied buildings.

Could it be that when when they were walking, their own footsteps echoed and therefore they couldn't hear clearly anyone else walking, either behind them or in front of them? ie the street isn't silent, because their own footfalls produced sound. And Buck's Row may have had some sort of "canyon" effect from the surrounding buildings, amplifying the sound? I know that in a local walk I do that runs under a road my footsteps take on a strange, echoey sound that sounds like someone is walking behind me! But that is a sound I'm not used to, but these people walked the streets all the time....

Notice both Cross and Neil in stating they heard footsteps were standing still at the time.... And Paul couldn't have heard (or should I be saying "would have had trouble hearing") Cross because he was walking behind him, and Cross would have had trouble hearing anyone leaving the murder site in front of him?

In the current days of shoes, runners and whatever people wear these days it must be hard to imagine what it was like walking around in hobnail boots. If we can still get hobnail boots, I wonder if it is worth "re-enacting" the scene?

Cheers
Bill

[Trevor Marriott]

It´s too much shadowboxing going on, and too little interest in the facts.

The main facts are not in dispute are they? Polly Nichols was murdered in Bucks Row and her throat was cut, and minor wounds were inflicted to her abdomen. Her time of death cannot be established.However you have invented your own scenario which surround those facts to fit your own theory.

There is no more evidence to show Lechmere killed Nicholls than there is to point to the following who were all involved in the finding of victims who had been murdered in similar circumstances to Lechmere finding Nicholls

John Reeves who found Martha Tabram
John Richardson who found Chapman

and not forgetting George Morris Night watchman in Mitre Square who might have popped out and murdered Eddowes and then popped back in.

or Pc Thompson finding Coles, was he the killer and did he make up the story of hearing footsteps running away

or Pc Andrews finding the body of Mckenzie was he her killer

How do they differ from Lechmere what makes Lechmere a murder suspect and none of the aforementioned?

If you are relying on the false name I would argue that if he were guilty and was giving a false name for that reason then why not simply make up a name?

I am interested to know if this theory was yours from the outset or did Edward bring it to you and you have taken up the mantle? Just interested to find out who is the puppet and who is the puppet master ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

But establishes pretty firmly that more than just meat went through there.

Chambers
Tea
Cloth
...

That has always been known, Gut. Meat was a major commodity - but by no means the only one.

[GUT]

Thoughts and remarks:

Yes, this carman of luxurious habits (champagne, mind you!) was nicked by a man hired by Pickfords.

But apparently, he had managed to spirit away half a luggage train of goods before that happened.

Making it a tough exercise to establish how effectively the carmen were controlled.

A question for you, Gary: it is said that the man who nicked Champagne Charlie was an "officer". What does that tell us; do you know?

But establishes pretty firmly that more than just meat went through there.

Chambers
Tea
Cloth
...