Lechmere Found "With" Nichols' Body

[Patrick S]

Christer and his sychophants have made much of what they refer to as Cross/Lechmere being "found" with Nichols' body. Of course, any objective student of the case understands that this is a gross mischaracterization of the facts. In fact, if one takes the time to look, they see that Lechmere does EXACTLY what human nature drove every witness to do upon finding the body of a (potential) "Ripper" victim.

Charles Lechmere found Polly Nichols' body and “….he called to Robert Paul who was also walking down the street”. (http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Charles_Cross.html)

John Davis after finding Annie Chapman's body "ran out into the street where he saw two men whose names he did not know (actually James Green and James Kent) and after telling them of his discovery, they went to see the body for themselves” (http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/John_Davis.html)

PC Edward Watkins found Catherine Eddowes’ body and "ran across the road to Messers Kearley & Tonge, the door was ajar, I pushed it open." He found a nightwatchman and said, "For Gods sake mate, come to my assistance". (http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Edward_Watkins.html)

Louis Diemschutz found Elizabeth Stride’s body and "went straight into the club to see if his wife was there, and seeing that she was, he told her (and several others who were in the room) of his find, but said that he could not tell if the woman was drunk or dead.” (http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/...iemschutz.html)

John Reeves found Martha Tabram’s body and "alarmed by what he saw, he did not examine the body, but ran to fetch a policeman and returned to the scene with PC Thomas Barrett.” (http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/John_Reeves.html).

Thomas Bowyer found Mary Kelly’s body and “he immediately went and informed his employer”. (http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Thomas_Bowyer.html)

[GUT]

Well maybe there were multiple rippers after all

[PC2267]

Having watched the Channel 5 documentary on Cross, I must say I found it compelling (however I'll come back to that shortly. Having read your post Patrick, you make some very glaring observations as to peoples conduct after having found a body. But correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Cross the only person that was found by someone else with a body? I can't get my head round the information that he then taps Paul on the shoulder and says look at this. It seems to be that Paul was uninterested and was late for work, so if Cross had just let him pass he'd have been none the wiser, so why did Cross (as the Ripper) approach him at all? But the glaring thing for me is and perhaps someone can answer this for me. WHY did Cross suddenly stop killing when it is clear he lived into old age?

[GUT]

Having watched the Channel 5 documentary on Cross, I must say I found it compelling (however I'll come back to that shortly. Having read your post Patrick, you make some very glaring observations as to peoples conduct after having found a body. But correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Cross the only person that was found by someone else with a body? I can't get my head round the information that he then taps Paul on the shoulder and says look at this. It seems to be that Paul was uninterested and was late for work, so if Cross had just let him pass he'd have been none the wiser, so why did Cross (as the Ripper) approach him at all? But the glaring thing for me is and perhaps someone can answer this for me. WHY did Cross suddenly stop killing when it is clear he lived into old age?

Fisherman says he didn't stop.

[Fisherman]

Fisherman says he didn't stop.

To be perfectly honest, Gut, Fisherman says that he does not THINK that he stopped.
If I was to say that he DID not stop, then that would equal me being certain.
And I have not the proof to establish that he did not stop.

So I would prefer the wording "Fisherman says that he thinks that he went on killing", if it is not too much trouble.

[GUT]

To be perfectly honest, Gut, Fisherman says that he does not THINK that he stopped.
If I was to say that he DID not stop, then that would equal me being certain.
And I have not the proof to establish that he did not stop.

So I would prefer the wording "Fisherman says that he thinks that he went on killing", if it is not too much trouble.

I can accept the Fish.

[Fisherman]

I can accept the Fish.

Good to hear, Gut. You will appreciate that I very often hear that I am too confident about Lechmere, so I take great care not to get things wrong.

[Pierre]

Good to hear, Gut. You will appreciate that I very often hear that I am too confident about Lechmere, so I take great care not to get things wrong.

Hi Fisherman,

Could you elaborate a bit on Lechmere and the murder in Millerīs Court please? It would be interesting to hear how you look on it.

Regards Pierre

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,

Could you elaborate a bit on Lechmere and the murder in Millerīs Court please? It would be interesting to hear how you look on it.

Regards Pierre

Okay.
My take is that Kelly was killed by Charles Lechmere, who sought her out on his way to Pickfords. Meaning he left the scene under a cover of darkness.
I donīt think she was targetted beforehand, so the inside job would have been a bonus for him.
I donīt think the damage took very long to inflict - we can see how he was able to inflict massive damage on Eddowes in a very short time.
I donīt think there is any doubt that Kelly was killed by the same man who had killed the earlier opened-up victims - both Chapman and Kelly (arguably the victims where there is good reason to believe that he was not disturbed) had their abdominal walls removed in three large flaps of skin that were left behind at the scene.
I donīt rely much on the "Oh, murder!" cry being useful evidence - I put very little trust in the witnesses; Prater, Lewis, Cox... there were too many people in Millers Court who were far too eager to get their fifteen minutes of fame. I think that is in keeping with the overall picture - I donīt invest much in the witnesses in the other cases either.
I donīt think that the man outside Crossinghams was either the killer or George Hutchinson.
I believe the killer may have consciously arranged the scene for maximum shock effect.
And I think it is odd that we discuss Kelly on a Nichols and Lechmere thread.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello Fisherman.

WAS LECHMERE THE CATS-MEAT MAN FOR MILLERS COURT? After reading about MCCarthy permitting No. 26 for the storage of costermonger barrows, i looked further into the professions of costermongers and cats-meat men. At first, what interested me were their "kings men". But the source remarked somethings that caught my attention. It stTed that barrows and hawkers would proceed past a dwelling all day long, and the cAt would not pay the least bit of attention. However, cats "knew" when the cats-meat man was near, and they would either race towards the door or seek out their master.

Elizabeth Prater states that her cat walked over her neck near 4am.

[Fisherman]

Hello Fisherman.

WAS LECHMERE THE CATS-MEAT MAN FOR MILLERS COURT? After reading about MCCarthy permitting No. 26 for the storage of costermonger barrows, i looked further into the professions of costermongers and cats-meat men. At first, what interested me were their "kings men". But the source remarked somethings that caught my attention. It stTed that barrows and hawkers would proceed past a dwelling all day long, and the cAt would not pay the least bit of attention. However, cats "knew" when the cats-meat man was near, and they would either race towards the door or seek out their master.

Elizabeth Prater states that her cat walked over her neck near 4am.

Hi Robert!

Interesting thought - but no catīs meat man would seek out customers at 4 AM. There is a text somewhere about Harrison Barber, the knacker from where the majority of the cats meat men (and women) got their flesh, and it says that they queued up outside between 5 and 6 AM.

I once stayed at a youth hostel during a fishing trip long ago. I stayed on the first floor. It was a warm night, and I had the window open. In the middle of the night, I woke up to the feeling that something large and heavy was walking on my chest.
It was a cat. under my room, there was a protruding veranda with a roof on it, and the cat had climbed up on it and sneaked in through the open window.
It was an odd feeling, I can say that much...

Anyway, it goes to prove that catīs donīt need any promise of food to tread on you!

Besides, in 1888, Lechmere would not have been a cats meat man - he was a carman, employed by Pickfords at that stage.

[DJA]

Interesting thought - but no catīs meat man would seek out customers at 4 AM. There is a text somewhere about Harrison Barber, the knacker from where the majority of the cats meat men (and women) got their flesh, and it says that they queued up outside between 5 and 6 AM.
.

Anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

Horse meat substitution.

Think I smell a rat. :}

[Fisherman]

Anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

Horse meat substitution.

Think I smell a rat. :}

Kind of like Sweeney Todd...? Donīt think so - he would not have left that pile of flesh on the bedside table in Millerīs Court if that was the case.

[DJA]

More of a Sweeney Fawlty.

Vegetarian myself.

Edit. Sweeney the Rat. Meh. Just doesn't have the right ring to it.

[Robert St Devil]

My bad, Fisherman.
I guess in my efforts to keep from writing an obtuse post, I managed to forget the framing.

Its not the idea of the cats-meat man walking by & hawking his wares at 4a. I was thinking of the cats-meat man after-hours:

The cats-meat man is off-hours. He is at Millers Court. Even from a distance, he is familiar to the cat, who, in turn, alerts the master.

I thought this & the Hanbury St. shop may have been Lexhmere's route, if he was the cm man.

For the past 6 mos. I have been learning (by direct experience) what you wrote about your cat experience to be true tho. Whoever taught those limey mongrels to think that my middle name is Serta has a royal... well anyways, yes, Felis Catus does have a propensity to want to sleep on top of a human around 3 or 4 in the morning.