Charles Lechmere: Prototypical Life of a Serial Killer

[Fiver]

Perhaps, but another theorist, citing the use of "forensic astrology," argues that Lechmere's wife Elizabeth was to blame-- "a dominatrix who turned her unstable husband into a monster."

Forensic Astrology - The Adventurous Astrologer (weebly.com)

There's schism in the Misogyny Sect of the Cult of Lechmere? This should be entertaining.

I'm assuming Christer would denounce this as a 'fringe' theory.

Fishy's a member of TorsoRipper Sect and the Ley Line Sect - he's forfitted the right to call anybody "fringe".

[Fiver]

Good list, Fiver, although I think it missed out one of the key (false) tenets, namely:
* Paul found Lechmere standing/crouching over the body of Polly Nichols

I've lost count of the times I've see this nugget of distorted evidence regurgitated.

This is one of the key tenets. How could I have missed it?

Another tenet I missed:

* Carmen wore hobnailed boots that echoed loudly down the street for at least a block. This is why Lechmere was able to escape silent and undetected from all the murder scenes.

[Lewis C]

Paul initially thinks she's dead, but then, when he touches her chest right before or while pulling down her dress, he thinks he feels a slight movement as of breathing. And then in the Lloyd’s interview he said he thought she was dead.

The interesting thing about how Paul came to feel a slight movement is that he seems to have felt it right before or while pulling down her dress.

Daily Telegraph of 18 September:
“The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint.”
Times of same date:
“While he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast, and then fancied he felt a slight movement.”

This seems to imply that the hem of Nichols’ dress was lying on her chest, because what else was Paul doing on the chest area right before or while pulling down the dress? If true, it would challenge the notion that the killer had covered the abdominal wounds.

Hi FrankO,

That's a very good point, but if the hem of her dress was that high, I think it's still possible that her wounds were covered, depending on how long her dress was, and depending on the manner in which the dress was raised - whether it was bunched up, or the hem pulled up in a way that it left other parts of the dress lower than the hem.

[Lewis C]

She would have been aware of the murder(s) as would every man and woman in the area but why would she assume that it was her son? And if she knew that he had killed Stride and Eddowes she had plenty of time to tell him to stop being a naughty boy in time to prevent the Kelly murder.

Yes, and we've been told that one reason why we should suspect Lechmere is that he kept it a secret from his family that he discovered Nichols' body. So his mother didn't know that he discovered Nichols' body, but suspected him anyway?

[JeffHamm]

Robert Paul pulled her clothes down.

"The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down." - Robert Paul, 18 September Daily Telegraph

"Her clothes were raised almost up to her stomach. Witness felt her hands and face, and they were cold. He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead. It was very dark, and he did not notice any blood. They agreed that the best thing they could do would be to tell the first policeman they met. He could not see whether the clothes were torn, and did not feel any other part of her body except the hands and face. They looked to see if there was a constable, but one was not to be seen. While he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast, and then fancied he felt a slight movement." Rpbert Paul, 18 September Times

When describing how far up her clothes were initially, as in thighs or stomach, etc, how you describe it depends upon what you are referencing. What I mean is, if you place, for example, a towel from your midsection down to your ankles type thing. Then lift the bit near your ankles and fold it up to expose your legs up to the knees (oh be calm my beating heart), you could describe that as the towel now "up to your stomach" (the bit originally at your ankles) or "up to your thighs" (where the "fold" is).

The above description suggests the "bit that goes towards the ankles" was high enough that Paul's hand touches her breast, but that doesn't mean she was exposed up to her chest, as the cloth may still be folded to cover her legs to around the thighs (as per the above towel example).

Again, we're left to make sense of descriptions that often have no standardized format, so different people will describe the same thing in different ways. The lack of things like crime scene photos, and other such records, creates a massive challenge, which I think is part of the reason why people get interested in the JtR case.

Anyway, with that in mind, it is entirely possible for neither Paul nor Cross/Lechmere to be aware of her injuries as they would have initially been covered even if the "ankle end" of her skirt was up to her chest area.

- Jeff

[FrankO]

Hi FrankO,

That's a very good point, but if the hem of her dress was that high, I think it's still possible that her wounds were covered, depending on how long her dress was, and depending on the manner in which the dress was raised - whether it was bunched up, or the hem pulled up in a way that it left other parts of the dress lower than the hem.

Hi Lewis,

I do think her wounds were still covered. I think the dress would normally come to her ankles, and if the hem of the dress was left lying on the chest area, then the fold would be more or less, as Jeff explains in his post above, halfway between ankles and chest at high thigh level, leaving the legs exposed, but covering the wounds.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is one of the key tenets. How could I have missed it?

Another tenet I missed:

* Carmen wore hobnailed boots that echoed loudly down the street for at least a block. This is why Lechmere was able to escape silent and undetected from all the murder scenes.

Perhaps another one to add to your list Fiver?

Because of the echoing of the hobnailed boots on cobbles Cross and Paul must have heard each other if they were only 50 or 60 yards or so apart on their walk to work ….so they must actually have been further apart……which must have meant that Cross would have heard Paul’s approach from considerably more than the 40 yards that he estimated…..making his ‘decision’ not to flee even more unlikely.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, and we've been told that one reason why we should suspect Lechmere is that he kept it a secret from his family that he discovered Nichols' body. So his mother didn't know that he discovered Nichols' body, but suspected him anyway?

I was more than a little surprised when I read about this Lewis. It smacks of desperation.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There's schism in the Misogyny Sect of the Cult of Lechmere? This should be entertaining.



Fishy's a member of TorsoRipper Sect and the Ley Line Sect - he's forfitted the right to call anybody "fringe".

I just read that article and regretfully its 5 minutes of my life that I’ll never get back. Has more drivel ever been compacted into one fairly short piece of writing? More proof that Cross was guilty though Fiver. Be fair.

I love the phrase ‘forensic astrology’ though. I’m trying to think of an example of two words that deserve to be next to each other in a sentence less?

[FrankO]

That makes sense Frank. And when he got there and found Neil on the spot it confirmed he thought.

Exactly, Mike. Otherwise, a guilty Lechmere would either just have to have guessed well or have heard Neil somewhere (while we have to assume that Neil could never have heard the carmen), or it would just have been sheer luck for Lechmere that Neil had arrived before Mizen did.

[Sam Flynn]

I love the phrase "forensic astrology"; though. I'm trying to think of an example of two words that deserve to be next to each other in a sentence less?

"Kosher bacon"?

[Abby Normal]

I just read that article and regretfully its 5 minutes of my life that I’ll never get back. Has more drivel ever been compacted into one fairly short piece of writing? More proof that Cross was guilty though Fiver. Be fair.

I love the phrase ‘forensic astrology’ though. I’m trying to think of an example of two words that deserve to be next to each other in a sentence less?

lol forensic astrology. got a good chuckle on that one.

[Herlock Sholmes]

lol forensic astrology. got a good chuckle on that one.

It’s time to worry when astrologers get involved Abby. I remember years ago stupidly buying Pamela Ball’s psychic investigation book. Maybe the tea leaves will lead us to the killer.

[Fiver]

I was more than a little surprised when I read about this Lewis. It smacks of desperation.

When people bring that nonsense up, I ask them how many facts they know about their great-great-grandfather. Do they even know his name?

[Fiver]

I love the phrase ‘forensic astrology’ though. I’m trying to think of an example of two words that deserve to be next to each other in a sentence less?

"President Trump"