Charles Allen Lechmere - new suspect?

[Kattrup]

hi kat
im just wondering does one just jump into a cats meat business? wouldnt ma lech and or family been involved somehow before?
and btw we dont know that lech "only tangentially... etc" . as far as we know, he could have been around it his whole life, no? you stated that as a fact is all im saying.

i find it highly interesting that ma lech had a cats meat business. would be a perfect chop shop bolt hole for a serial killer.

I don’t know how one enters the cats’ meat business, but the fact is that, as far as I know, 1891 is the earliest mention of it with regards to Lechmere’s mother.

If you wish to argue that there was an earlier connection, you must find a source which supports this.

Of course becoming a cats meat seller can stretch back in time from before 1891, but it becomes theoretical, which is what I stated or tried to, anyway: that Lechmere so far has no connection.

[Kattrup]

I find it a lot more difficult to understand how somebody with any level of understanding of these matters would care to raise a point like that. I have - VERY clearly - said that we are not sure of Maria Louisas connection to the trade until 1891, and that the major family connection to the business is not proven until at a later stage.

I have never said that the theories I point to are applicable to a 19:th century man.

However! There are NO scientific papers studying the relation between criminality and the meat and butchery business from Victorian days, and so if we want to look at that link, why would we not turn to what material there is? And with all respect, what is it in the trade that you suspect may have changed from a heartwarming and humanizing environment in the Victorian abattoirs into the alienating and cold slaughterhouses of modern days?

I find your objections ill founded and, quite frankly, more than a tad dumb. And the sad thing about that is that it does not surprise me much. You can do better, I know that. So why donīt you?

Do you remember the days when you said that you tried to stay away from the Lechmere threads? Those days are long gone, are they not? Now, you canīt help yourself, it seems. And that is where you go badly wrong, if I am not much mistaken.

Well, we all have our pet peeves. I guess one of mine is people citing academic articles without having read them!
Ill-founded indeed.
Many things changed from Victorian times, also in slaughterhouses. For instance, I believe a poster here (Gary Barnett, as I recall) has a special interest in knacker dynasties of the 19th century. The fact that it could be a family trade immediately sets apart the Victorian butchers from our modern slaughterhouse workers. Your second article deals with the shock and coping strategies of modern low class slaughterhouse employees. It must be very obvious that their modern and postmodern ways of making sense of their work will differ significantly from that of a young Victorian butcher who’s been brought up in the trade.

This is why historical methodology is needed when discussing the Ripper-cases, and why sociology is irrelevant. Something that has, by the way, been mentioned many times over the years when comparisons with modern serial killers have been made.

But I’m glad you think I can do better, thanks for the vote of confidence - I’m sure working and discussing together we can improve our understanding of the case.

[Fisherman]

Glad you had a good experience with the family. Shame it was not more fruitful.

I'm surprised that there was no family hand me down stories about the man who found the first ripper victim. In my family we have stories about some of the more colourful ancestors from Victorian times. My great, great grandfather in particular - and the story seemed to survive largely intact and accurate, as we recently found a press report about one of his escapades that tied up nicely.

I agree that people tend to tell stories about matters that are larger than life, so to speak. Whenever a family member is involved in something such, it tends to become great stories, sometimes more great than truthful in the long run. Of course, if Lechmere never informed his relatives that he was the finder of Nichols, then it would not get incoroporated in the family lore. In the context, it is interesting that the carman showed up at the inquest in his working clothes - perhaps on account of not having told his wife where he was going that day...?
Good to hear about your family lore - sounds like a treat!

[etenguy]

That is mainly Edward Stows department, although yes, I have met Susan Lechmere and spoken to her - which was genuinely nice, by the way! As for what the relatives had to say, one interesting part was that none of them had any knowledge at all of the name Cross ever having been used by family members. When it comes to recollections of the carman himself, he is seemingly too many generations removed from today to have left a mark.
There was some story told after the relatives had been informed about the possibility that Lechmere had been Jack the Ripper, but this material had too much of "Aha, now that you mention it, I seem to remember..." over it to feel reliable, not least since the informatn in question had already professed to having had no such knowledge. If there was something else, painting a picture of Lechmere, then I have not been informed about it. As I said, Edward Stow is the one person with the really intimate knowledge.

Glad you had a good experience with the family. Shame it was not more fruitful.

I'm surprised that there was no family hand me down stories about the man who found the first ripper victim. In my family we have stories about some of the more colourful ancestors from Victorian times. My great, great grandfather in particular - and the story seemed to survive largely intact and accurate, as we recently found a press report about one of his escapades that tied up nicely.

[caz]

I don't know, Fisherman, but I'm jolly glad I'm not eligible to join the latest incarnation of the Hellfire Club.

I can't tell if the number of recruits is growing or we have multiple personalities among us.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

This is just too funny, Fishy. You addressed it to Kattrup, who also tried to stay away from the Maybrick threads, claiming a lack of interest in the subject matter and no interest in learning more about it. Yet recently Kattnip has been all over Diary World like a rash, seeking information from the wrong people despite repeatedly being given directions to the right one.

What the devil is occurring?

Love,

Caz
X

Maybe itīs just a case of not trying hard enough, Caz...? Or two?

[caz]

Do you remember the days when you said that you tried to stay away from the Lechmere threads? Those days are long gone, are they not? Now, you canīt help yourself, it seems. And that is where you go badly wrong, if I am not much mistaken.

This is just too funny, Fishy. You addressed it to Kattrup, who also tried to stay away from the Maybrick threads, claiming a lack of interest in the subject matter and no interest in learning more about it. Yet recently Kattnip has been all over Diary World like a rash, seeking information from the wrong people despite repeatedly being given directions to the right one.

What the devil is occurring?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I am sorry to say that after living in my current house for nearly 20 years, I would not even recognise my neighbours from 2 doors down or further away and yet I'm sure I will have passed them many times on the way to the tube or local shops.

Ditto, etenguy.

I live in a corner house on a busy crossroads in East Devon, with just one immediate neighbour. There are houses in all other directions, but when we were clapping the NHS each Thursday evening at eight in our front garden, I didn't recognise any of the people who emerged to join in the applause. Just the lovely lady next door.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I noticed a weak tone and fearness in your voice Caz, A remarkable regression from the die heart Diary defender Caz we all knew, how are you going to handle these remaining endless-looking hours of waiting and expectations before the fall of your legend?


Do you think you are the center of the universe?! and every Diary related research has to be connecting to you and your beliefs, let those remaining 2 or 3 persons who still think the Diary is genuine have something new to ponder, maybe the day is coming and we will all celebrate an earth empty of scrapbook-infected human.


The Baron

Off topic now I think, David B. This is a Lechmere thread.

In any case, my post was directed to Fisherman, to warn him not to waste his time arguing with your funny little alter ego, which has no business being on these boards at all.

I couldn't be the centre of the universe, could I, while you already occupy that lofty position.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

I think one should read the scientific material before one attempts to use it to bolster one's theory.

That is why I recommended that this was done, actually.

It's supremely difficult to understand why these theories of late 20th/early 21st century industrial slaughterhouse workers could be thought as relevant to a theory regarding a 19th century man man who did not even work as a butcher and only tangentially and theoretically has a connection to the meat industry.

I find it a lot more difficult to understand how somebody with any level of understanding of these matters would care to raise a point like that. I have - VERY clearly - said that we are not sure of Maria Louisas connection to the trade until 1891, and that the major family connection to the business is not proven until at a later stage.

I have never said that the theories I point to are applicable to a 19:th century man.

However! There are NO scientific papers studying the relation between criminality and the meat and butchery business from Victorian days, and so if we want to look at that link, why would we not turn to what material there is? And with all respect, what is it in the trade that you suspect may have changed from a heartwarming and humanizing environment in the Victorian abattoirs into the alienating and cold slaughterhouses of modern days?

I find your objections ill founded and, quite frankly, more than a tad dumb. And the sad thing about that is that it does not surprise me much. You can do better, I know that. So why donīt you?

Do you remember the days when you said that you tried to stay away from the Lechmere threads? Those days are long gone, are they not? Now, you canīt help yourself, it seems. And that is where you go badly wrong, if I am not much mistaken.

[Fisherman]

Thank you.

The first article is about crime rates rising in rural areas when modern, late 20th century industrial abattoirs are established.

The second one is about early 21st century South African slaughterhouse workers and their experiences working there. It's the article of the three that most supports your contention that butchery business is desentisizing.

The third one is the same as the first.

The fourth one is akin to an opinion piece, using the first article as basis for suggesting that slaughterhouse workers might be more exposed to ptsd-like problems.
It's not peer-reviewed and the author is a college junior.




From article 2:
Research focusing on the well-being of slaughterhouse employees is scarce and in the South African context almost non-existing.
from article 3
studies of this psychological phenomenon have largely ignored the slaughterhouse worker community,


Yes, extensive, it seems.

As I said, I remember seeing more material of the same type, speaking about the meat and butcher trade as desensitizing. I find it a bit sad when you are implying that there is n ot much of a basis for it. Of course, if one paper draws on another, it detracts from the matter to a degree, then again, when a paper draws on another paper, it is the quality of the paper drawn upon that establishes the value of a thesis.
And it seems to me that we are on pretty solid ground here.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish,

I too often ponder that incident.

If the Charles Cross who was involved in the child's death was the same Charles Cross who worked at Broad Street, what might he have been doing up in Islington?

The incident occurred a few streets away from the area known as ‘Belle Isle’, an area described by Charles Booth as ‘the chief seat of the London Horse slaughterers’. It would eventually be the location of Harrison, Barber’s head office, but in 1876, it was where John Harrison ran his business.

Such was the close connection between Harrison, Barber and Pickfords, that when HB was created in 1886, Pickfords’ Horse Manager, William McCulloch, was on the HB board of directors. HB had the contract to dispose of Pickfords’ superfluous horses.

Also, HB received boiled horseflesh from provincial knacker’s via Broad Street, where Pickfords were the designated agent of the LNWR.

And to cap it all, Charles Lechmere’s son, while working as a cats meat salesman/carter, was living in tiny Winthrop Street a couple of doors from HB’s knackers yard.

When I consider all of that, I find it suggestive of a connection between the Lechmeres and HB.

Gary

It certainly cannot be excluded. And it would dovetail nicely with the Lechmeres being involved with the business very early on. Letīs hope something surfaces to enlighten us further; the idea that it is too far removed in time didnīt count on you finding the incident in the first place, so I am hopeful that there is more lying around.

[Fisherman]

Indeed, Fisherman.

I believe you have interviewed / chatted with descendent(s) of Charles Lechmere, at least Susan Lechmere. Were there no stories of the man who found the first Ripper victim circulating in the family?

That is mainly Edward Stows department, although yes, I have met Susan Lechmere and spoken to her - which was genuinely nice, by the way! As for what the relatives had to say, one interesting part was that none of them had any knowledge at all of the name Cross ever having been used by family members. When it comes to recollections of the carman himself, he is seemingly too many generations removed from today to have left a mark.
There was some story told after the relatives had been informed about the possibility that Lechmere had been Jack the Ripper, but this material had too much of "Aha, now that you mention it, I seem to remember..." over it to feel reliable, not least since the informatn in question had already professed to having had no such knowledge. If there was something else, painting a picture of Lechmere, then I have not been informed about it. As I said, Edward Stow is the one person with the really intimate knowledge.

[MrBarnett]

hi kat
im just wondering does one just jump into a cats meat business? wouldnt ma lech and or family been involved somehow before?
and btw we dont know that lech "only tangentially... etc" . as far as we know, he could have been around it his whole life, no? you stated that as a fact is all im saying.

i find it highly interesting that ma lech had a cats meat business. would be a perfect chop shop bolt hole for a serial killer.

Having a son who carted cats meat for the largest processer of horseflesh in the country (the world it was claimed) might have been useful.

[Abby Normal]

I think one should read the scientific material before one attempts to use it to bolster one's theory.







It's supremely difficult to understand why these theories of late 20th/early 21st century industrial slaughterhouse workers could be thought as relevant to a theory regarding a 19th century man man who did not even work as a butcher and only tangentially and theoretically has a connection to the meat industry.

hi kat
im just wondering does one just jump into a cats meat business? wouldnt ma lech and or family been involved somehow before?
and btw we dont know that lech "only tangentially... etc" . as far as we know, he could have been around it his whole life, no? you stated that as a fact is all im saying.

i find it highly interesting that ma lech had a cats meat business. would be a perfect chop shop bolt hole for a serial killer.