Charles Lechmere interesting link

[Barnaby]

I'm sure that this back-and-forth must be frustrating to both sides. But it is certainly not unique. Within science, Charles Darwin once half jokingly stated that scientists should die at 60, because after that age there is little chance that they can objectively evaluate new theories. On the other hand, and as pointed out by Thomas Kuhn, a skeptical old guard ensures a thorough vetting of new theories. I see all of this at play here; I conclude that the apparent dysfunction is healthy!

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbeggar ,

Show me the wild stories that every publication ran about the gangs

MrB

Who ever said the tabloid press had the monopoly on exaggeration

But if you make a start with Mrs L , i'll do my best to catch up

cheers , moonbegger

[Fisherman]

I'm sure that this back-and-forth must be frustrating to both sides. But it is certainly not unique. Within science, Charles Darwin once half jokingly stated that scientists should die at 60, because after that age there is little chance that they can objectively evaluate new theories. On the other hand, and as pointed out by Thomas Kuhn, a skeptical old guard ensures a thorough vetting of new theories. I see all of this at play here; I conclude that the apparent dysfunction is healthy!

Now there´s a comfort and a half ...

The best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

Moon,

Well for a start she couldn't read.

Of course the press created a countrywide panic, but that hadn't really got into its stride at the time Charles juggled his names.

And the panic was about a semi-supernatural monster who attacked women for no apparent reason, nothing to do with gang activity.

And Doveton St, for all it's apparent proximity on the map, was probably a world away from the mean streets of Spitalfields where the residents had first hand experience of the Rips.

MrB

[MrBarnett]

I'm sure that this back-and-forth must be frustrating to both sides. But it is certainly not unique. Within science, Charles Darwin once half jokingly stated that scientists should die at 60, because after that age there is little chance that they can objectively evaluate new theories. On the other hand, and as pointed out by Thomas Kuhn, a skeptical old guard ensures a thorough vetting of new theories. I see all of this at play here; I conclude that the apparent dysfunction is healthy!

Well put, Barnaby.

I'm amazed at how team Lech find the energy to answer the same old questions ad nauseum. It says much for their conviction of Lech's guilt. And the playful tone of most of the exchanges is entertaining.

But having said that, it would be nice to have something new to get our teeth into. A tasty piece of cat's meat perhaps? I personally go for a JTR with some butchery experience and would like to hear what others think on the subject.

If the topic was part of a Crossmere thread I think it would have a longer life span just a plain old 'Did Jack Have Butchery Skills?' thread.

MrB

[moonbegger]

Moon,

Well for a start she couldn't read.

Of course the press created a countrywide panic, but that hadn't really got into its stride at the time Charles juggled his names.

And the panic was about a semi-supernatural monster who attacked women for no apparent reason, nothing to do with gang activity.

MrB

Greetings MrB ,

Well for a start she couldn't read

Neither could my Nan , And growing up in and around the East End, there was not a thing that went on down our street or in the area that she didn't know about .. in fact most of the time she'd put everyone else in the picture .

Of course the press created a countrywide panic, but that hadn't really got into its stride at the time Charles juggled his names.

All I can tell you there MrB , is read the press boards .. it was going off .

And the panic was about a semi-supernatural monster who attacked women for no apparent reason, nothing to do with gang activity.

Here be just the first bunch I looked at ..

Times 1st , "The police have no theory with respect to the matter, except that a gang of ruffians exists in the neighborhood,"

Star 29th ," The other murder, in which the woman received 30 stabs, must also have been the work of a maniac. This murder occurred on Bank Holiday. On the Bank Holiday preceding another woman was murdered in equally brutal but even more barbarous fashion by being stabbed with a stick".

Morn Ad.. "is that there exists in the East end a "high rip" gang who levy blackmail upon wretched outcasts, and murder them when submission is not accorded to their demands. It is a horrible theory for the crime; but the facts are there,"

Evening Sta , " A third theory is that the frequent robberies and occasional murders which have lately taken place in the East-end are the work of a number of young ruffians known as the "High Rip Gang." Recent events have shown that even the West-end of London is not free from this form of crime,"

Echo 31st ."There is yet another suggestion, that these murders may have been the work of a gang of scoundrels who seek to levy blackmail upon unfortunate women."

"Throughout the week the interest in the Whitechapel murder has been kept at fever heat. Following so closely as it does upon the shocking murder of the unfortunate Martha Tabram; such excitement was only to be expected"

"The scene of the fearful tragedy has been daily visited by hundreds of people who freely conversed amongst themselves upon the all absorbing topic"

"It is not surprising that these frequent and brutal crimes should have alarmed the residents in the locality"

And that's just the press MrB , As anyone who has ever lived in the East End will tell you , The really scary **** is the **** that don't make the papers ..

Cheers , moonbegger

[MrBarnett]

Greetings MrB ,


Neither could my Nan , And growing up in and around the East End, there was not a thing that went on down our street or in the area that she didn't know about .. in fact most of the time she'd put everyone else in the picture

Cheers , moonbegger

You've outgunned me, Moon (except in respect of East End nans - I had two.) However, a careful reading of your post reveals her to be something of an exception. And furthermore, her knowledge was apparently very localised. So if her next door neighbour had been Mrs Lech she might not have been so clued up after all.

MrB

[moonbegger]

Hello MrB ,

Three things in life are for certain , Taxes , Death , & Women will gossip whenever the occasion rises

I'm not to sure my Nans knowledge of "all things nothing to do with her" , was an exceptional thing back in the day MrB , And I can speak with 100% certainty , that if a major murder to place in Dalston ( 5 mins away ) , between Nan and her Gossiping friends , there would be not a detail , a theory , a culprit , that was not discussed up and down the street , And that's before the papers even released squat .

And God forbid , if it happened to be on my poor old Granddad's route to work ( Let alone discovering the body ), I can only imagine he would have locked himself in the out house for some peace and quiet

There lies my problem with the whole Mrs L being completely in the dark regarding her husbands involvement in the discovery of Polly ..
Even as a new neighbor she would have been involved with the spiraling local gossip , whether she liked it or not .. And all this before the press even released her address !! And I can guarantee you once again MrB , if my Nans address appeared in (Any) local paper , within an hour , all the neighbors would be knocking ..

Having said that , I can see how some people who have no connection , or foundations with lower class or working class London , could perpetuate the myth that everyone kept themselves to themselves .. Peoples minds tend to gravitate towards their own personal and individual experiences .

cheers ,

moonbegger

[MrBarnett]

Hello MrB ,

Three things in life are for certain , Taxes , Death , & Women will gossip whenever the occasion rises

I'm not to sure my Nans knowledge of "all things nothing to do with her" , was an exceptional thing back in the day MrB , And I can speak with 100% certainty , that if a major murder to place in Dalston ( 5 mins away ) , between Nan and her Gossiping friends , there would be not a detail , a theory , a culprit , that was not discussed up and down the street , And that's before the papers even released squat .

And God forbid , if it happened to be on my poor old Granddad's route to work ( Let alone discovering the body ), I can only imagine he would have locked himself in the out house for some peace and quiet

There lies my problem with the whole Mrs L being completely in the dark regarding her husbands involvement in the discovery of Polly ..
Even as a new neighbor she would have been involved with the spiraling local gossip , whether she liked it or not .. And all this before the press even released her address !! And I can guarantee you once again MrB , if my Nans address appeared in (Any) local paper , within an hour , all the neighbors would be knocking ..

Having said that , I can see how some people who have no connection , or foundations with lower class or working class London , could perpetuate the myth that everyone kept themselves to themselves .. Peoples minds tend to gravitate towards their own personal and individual experiences .

cheers ,

moonbegger

Hello Moonbegger,

I agree with all you say (especially the last paragraph). I have argued this point before and was told in no uncertain terms that East End neighbourliness didn't begin until after WW1.

I have no doubt that with a large brood of children Mrs Lech would have soon made friends with her neighbours and the idea that they were all blissfully unaware of their connection to the most dramatic events of the day is absurd.

My point, though was about Mrs Lech's more general knowledge of East End criminality, such as gang activity. If my ancestors, all four legs, are anything to go by they were very territorial and for generations lived within a handful of interconnected streets. That was their world, especially the women who didn't moved further afield for work.

MrB

[DRoy]

Moon & MrB,

There are cases in the Old Bailey where witnesses talk about their different names. Most of the ones I've found say something along the lines of they are known as _____ but their real name is _____ . I'm not talking about what people may call themselves, I mean what others knew them as.

This is important because Lech may be well known as Cross in the neighborhood regardless whether Lech signs his true name in documents. This could also have extended to his family, similar to this example...

HYAM HYAMS: The prisoner is my brother—my mother's maiden name was Mitchell—she being a hard-working woman, and a public character, by selling fish in the street, used to be called Mitchell, and as such I and my brothers are called Mitchell at times, but we have no right to the name.

Moonbegger & MrB are probably correct in their views that it would be difficult for Mrs Lech to not have heard anything nor be able to put 2 and 2 together.

Cheers
DRoy

[moonbegger]

Hello MrB ,

I agree with all you say (especially the last paragraph). I have argued this point before and was told in no uncertain terms that East End neighbourliness didn't begin until after WW1

Certainly looks like 1903 Stepney had a neighborly community ! And for all we know , that could be Mrs L at her front door .

[moonbegger]

you know it makes sense Rodney ..

[Fisherman]

Moon & MrB,

There are cases in the Old Bailey where witnesses talk about their different names. Most of the ones I've found say something along the lines of they are known as _____ but their real name is _____ . I'm not talking about what people may call themselves, I mean what others knew them as.

This is important because Lech may be well known as Cross in the neighborhood regardless whether Lech signs his true name in documents.

Cheers
DRoy

It is important when you prove that it applies in Lechmeres case. Not before.

The Old Bailey people you speak of - but not exemplify ...? - divulged BOTH their names to the court. Lechmere did no such thing. He did not say "I am known as Cross, though my real name is Lechmere", did he? No, he gave just the ONE name, as if it was his true one.

Can you see the difference?

And please, DRoy, do keep in mind that 99 per cent of all honest men had just the one name, and were known under just that one name too.

There MAY be an innocent reason, but as it stands, the name swap remains suspicious, not least since we know for a fact that he used the name Lechmere regularly when speaking to authorities. And the police are a... yes...? CORRECT! The police are an authority!

So you fail once again. And to boot, you fail in the exact same fashion as on the last occasion. And the one before that. And the one before that. And the one ...

No that I have any hope at all that it will make you stop trying.

All the best,
Fisherman

[moonbegger]

Now there's a thought !

In the days of copyhold land, a persons' entitlement to land was only recorded in the manor court rolls. Deeds as they are known today, did not exist. The only "proof" one had that one owned particular land was in the "copy" rolls held by the manorial clerk. If a woman was widowed, and later remarried, the children of her first marriage often took the name of the step-father. But, to maintain their right to their inheritance, they would use the step-father's name as an alias. There were variations in this practice. In one well-documented case circa 1558, William Camborne married Elinor Wilton Paynter, a widow with seven children, and adopted the surname of her first husband, becoming William Camborne alias Paynter of Trelissick, St. Erth. Their descendants used both Camborne and Paynter, with the use of Paynter eventually completely overtaking the use of Camborne within three generations.

In some cases, persons legally changed their names to obtain an inheritance from a line in their family which was in danger of "dying out." For instance, a man would take the name of his maternal uncle to become his legal heir.

moonbegger .

[Fisherman]

Now there's a thought !


moonbegger .

Kids sometimes dislike the names they are given, both chritian names and surnames. So somebody born Gregory Parsons could well warm to the thought of having been born Jonathan Haines instead.

That may be the explanation that lies behind the whole name issue.

I would not, however, be daft enought to propose that the suggestion as such - or any other suggestion as to why Lechmere called himself Cross at the inquest - would somehow take precedence over the combination of the statistical fact that an overwhelming majority of the victorian men used just the one name and the proven fact that our carman habitually called himself Lechmere when he dealt with authorities.

After that, any alternative suggestion of why he would have used the name Cross on the inquest day must be regarded as a trivial pastime with no bearing on the overall issue, up til the moment when some sort of evidence can be presented that relates specifically to the carman, instead of generalized exceptions from the "days of copyhold land".

The interpretation that rules the day until such evidence is provided, is that suspicion must cling to the nameswap.

If I wanted to, I could have said all of this shorter: You are wasting your time.

All the best,
Fisherman