Charles Lechmere interesting link

[Lechmere]

Moonbeggar
Only one newspaper reported the address.
They had only just moved not the street.
So there has to be an excellent chance that no connection between the Lechmeres and the crimes was made by the other Doveton Street dwellers.
Mrs Lechmere's husband was probably out every single night of the murders (the double event involves more conjecture on that point) as he went to work at that time.
This - together - somewhat invalidates your post.

[MrBarnett]

Ed,

But wasn't this the biggest news story ever? Wasn't the whole country caught up in a JTR fever, with little old ladies in the Lake District double locking their doors to keep the monster out?

I find it hard to believe that a sleepy Doveton Street was totally unaware of its connection to the Nichols murder. It's more credible to me that Mrs L did find out, but if her husband was the monster we suspect him to be (did I say 'we'?) he gave her a right-hander and told her to keep her mouth shut. His attempt to hide his involvement was pretty pathetic and probably didn't work at the time.

MrB

[Lechmere]

Maybe it did maybe it didn't, who knows?
But in the thousands of column inches there was one mere isolated snip mentioning Doveton Street which would make it easy to miss.
Some testimony, some witnesses, some tall tale tellers were dwelt on and revisited by the press. The Cross aspect was never gone back over and never remarked on.

[Lechmere]

Barnaby

The whole ‘genetic link to criminality’ issue is somewhat controversial.
It could be based on inherited inability to tell right from wrong or a general selfishness or a lack of group cohesiveness.
My guess is that the draconian punishments that were commonplace up until at least the early 19th century would have had the effect of weeding out such characteristics from the gene pool.
But given time, if they were genetic, they would reoccur as they would presumably be the result of random mutation which would be passed on.

In contrast psychopathic traits could be beneficial if harnessed to the acquisition of wealth and power and does not seek an outlet in overtly criminal behaviour.
But murderous psychopathic behaviour, if it was genetic, would tend not to be genetically passed as the bearers of this gene would tend to be eliminated by society.

I think it is important to separate out psychopathic serial killers from the general run of criminals.
Not doing that was a mistake made by the police in 1888.
The factors which create a psychopathic serial killer – part physiological, part environmental – are different from that which create a ‘normal’ criminal.

‘Normal’ criminal behaviour(unlike psychopathic serial killing) is often associated with poverty. But obviously not all poor people turn to crime. Some people clearly have a greater propensity to turn to crime than others. While his must be due to something connected to the criminal’s physiology, it does not necessarily follow that this is genetically passed.

Psychopathic serial killers are clearly much rarer than ‘normal criminals’, so it is more difficult to establish patterns.
But is it found that it runs in the family?
Do we find families of serial killers across generations?
Should we expect to find serial killers in the generations before or after a suspect in order to enhance that suspect’s status?
I don’t think so.
I have never seen any evidence for this.

[moonbegger]

Fine. So tell me how I am castigating Elizabeth Lechmere. Or her family, bar her husband.

Fisherman

Fish ! How could someone like me , tell someone like you, anything ?

Cheers

moonbegger

[drstrange169]

Elizabeth Lechmere


>She was illiterate<

Can anyone point me to how we know she was illiterate 1888? Is this statement based on the marriage certificate or are their other examples?

[Fisherman]

Fish ! How could someone like me , tell someone like you, anything ?

Cheers

moonbegger

In this case, you couldnīt. And donīt feel sorry for yourself - I was referring to the repeated mistakes and misinterpretations you have made (like when you stated that we had said that a police visit to Lechmereīs house would not give away his true identity) when I wrote that you should not castigate Lechmereīs wife.
I am sorry if it offended you, it was not a well chosen wording, but frustration got the better of me. I happen to think that you are a very nice bloke, all in all, so I should have been more patient. I normally am, but this time you first presented a flagrant fault and ascribed it to me/us, whereupon I corrected you - only to have it reiterated AGAIN. That was what made me blow my top. For that I apologize, unconditionally.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

>She was illiterate<

Can anyone point me to how we know she was illiterate 1888? Is this statement based on the marriage certificate or are their other examples?

Thatīs Edwards department, since he has the documents. What I DO know is that not only Elizabeth, but apparently also her parents put their marks on documents instead of signing them. So she apparently came from an illiterate home, which would go to tell us why she could not write as she got married. If there was any change in the condition, I donīt know.

The best,
Fisherman

[moonbegger]

tell me how I am castigating Elizabeth Lechmere. Or her family, bar her husband.

Well seeing as you ask Fish , I think I presented the deaf , dumb , blind , argument below .. but I will add, that its not actually me who subscribes to her being Deaf , dumb & blind on these issues .

"The very same Mrs Lechmere that would have been blind to his being out of the house every single time a murder was committed . (especially as she apparently paid mucho attention to his leaving times )"

"The very same Mrs Lechmere who would also be Deaf to all the local gossip regarding a certain Charles Allen Cross who lived at 22 doveton street .."

"The very same Mrs Lechmere , who would never speak to anyone regarding the biggest Murder hunt in history happening on her doorstep , be it at the shops , market , backyard , ect , ect "

"The very same Mrs Lechmere , who would have let the abundance of circumstantial evidence pointing towards her Husband wash over her without her even raising an eyebrow , bloodied shirts, trousers, ect ,ect "

"Not to mention the Children !! repeating what they hear at school , or playing in the streets with their neighbors kids .. yep thats the Local Doveton community that have a celebrity witness living amongst them .."

I know Lech put in a valiant effort to dismiss all of the above .. but for my mind there is way too much going on here for his wife to remain clueless .

Cheers

Moonbegger .

[drstrange169]

>>Thatīs Edwards department, since he has the documents. What I DO know is that not only Elizabeth, but apparently also her parents put their marks on documents instead of signing them. <<

Thanks Fisherman, that's why I asked. Presumably she was never given the change to learn as nobodyelse in the family could read or write. You'd assume after 17 years in a a family that could read and write she might well have picked it up, but if there is another "X" knocking around after 1888, then I guess not.

[GUT]

>>Thatīs Edwards department, since he has the documents. What I DO know is that not only Elizabeth, but apparently also her parents put their marks on documents instead of signing them. <<

Thanks Fisherman, that's why I asked. Presumably she was never given the change to learn as nobodyelse in the family could read or write. You'd assume after 17 years in a a family that could read and write she might well have picked it up, but if there is another "X" knocking around after 1888, then I guess not.

Not strictly true there are plenty of people who, for one reason or another can do one but not the other.

[moonbegger]

In this case, you couldnīt. And donīt feel sorry for yourself - I was referring to the repeated mistakes and misinterpretations you have made (like when you stated that we had said that a police visit to Lechmereīs house would not give away his true identity) when I wrote that you should not castigate Lechmereīs wife.
I am sorry if it offended you, it was not a well chosen wording, but frustration got the better of me. I happen to think that you are a very nice bloke, all in all, so I should have been more patient. I normally am, but this time you first presented a flagrant fault and ascribed it to me/us, whereupon I corrected you - only to have it reiterated AGAIN. That was what made me blow my top. For that I apologize, unconditionally.

All the best,
Fisherman

Its all good Fish , I wasn't offended or feeling sorry for myself in the slightest, but I do appreciate the sentiment none the less .. I am however slightly confused how I could attribute something to Ed he clearly never expressed .. I could swear blind I read words to the extent of " If the police did pay his wife a visit what makes you so sure his name would be revealed " But I have had a stressful week myself , so I may well have misinterpreted something .

Cheers

moonbegger

[Fisherman]

Well seeing as you ask Fish , I think I presented the deaf , dumb , blind , argument below .. but I will add, that its not actually me who subscribes to her being Deaf , dumb & blind on these issues .

I know Lech put in a valiant effort to dismiss all of the above .. but for my mind there is way too much going on here for his wife to remain clueless .

Cheers

Moonbegger .

I agree very much with Edward on this. Elizabeth Lechmere would not have any reason to feel suspicious because her husband left for work, would she?
And why would the neighbours gossip about the family? That would predispose that some of them had read the Star and picked up on the address, and since it said Cross, and since the family living in 22 Doveton Street were named Lechmere, all the nosy neighbours could do would perhaps be to accept that the paper had gotten it wrong. The family was new in the area, and would have been unknown to the neighbours, so there is no reason to suppose that they must have known that Charles worked at Pickfords.

I donīt think that Lechmeres wife was washed over with circumstantial evidence. If he kept the witness thing from her, he would take care to hide anything else too. As for blood, we donīt know if there was much blood on his clothes, do we? Besides, we know that his mother was in the catīs meat business, and there is good reason to think that Charles may have helped out with that, earning him the odd bloodstain or two.

I think Elizabeth Lechmere may well have been seeing, hearing and speaking - and unaware of what was going on. Gary Ridgways wife was, for example - and he killed dozens and dozens of women, and the coppers came calling more than once at his house. Still Mrs Ridgway suspected nothing, and was severely shocked when the truth was revealed. Same thing with Mrs Dennis Rader, as I understand it.

There is also the apparent possibility that Mrs Lechmere DID feel suspicious - but did not act upon it. It takes a lot before you give your husband away - and before you admit to yourself that you have been deceived for twenty years.

Someone like me and you should realize that.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

I could swear blind I read words to the extent of " If the police did pay his wife a visit what makes you so sure his name would be revealed " But I have had a stressful week myself , so I may well have misinterpreted something .

Cheers

moonbegger

It happens easily enough - once we are convinced we have got it right, we will read sentences in a way that confirms this. The words are there, but in another order, and we subconsciously rearrange them to make sense to us.
There is even a word for in in Swedish, "intressedominans" (dominance of interest), created by a scientist, Albert Eskeröd, who looked into matters like these many years ago.

Iīve done the exact same myself, as I suspect most of us have. Itīs no big deal - at least it wasnīt until I lost my temper ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Dr Strange
It is not just the marriage certificate - there is a later document also with an X.