Charles Lechmere interesting link

[Fisherman]

>>Paul said it was EXACTLY 3.45 as he was there<<

It's truly remarkable how elastic things have to be to fit the Crossmere theory.

Under oath Paul said,
"... just before a quarter to four ..."

The " exactly 3:45" was a quote was from the Lloyds interview, in which we all know Paul overstated his involvement in the incident.

Take the blind passion out of the Lechmere theory and it fades significantly.

The same - but to a much larger degree - applies to the blind faith in Lechmeres innocence.

Let´s look at what you are saying about "just before a quarter to four", Dr Strange. Oh, here it is! "On the Friday he left home just before a quarter to four" (Daily News).

Well, well - so he is NOT saying that he was in Buck´s Row at "just before" a quarter to four - he says he LEFT HOME at that time. And then he had a minute or two to walk to Buck´s Row, placing him there at...? Yes ..?

Here´s the Times, same subject:
"He left home about a quarter to 4 on the Friday morning and as he was passing up Buck's-row he saw a man standing in the middle of the road. "

He KNEW that it was just before 3.45 as he left his home. He kept track of the time, minute by minute, the way we do when we are late for work. Here he is, ad verbatim, as per the Morning Advertiser:

"Robert Paul, Forster-street, Whitechapel. -- I am a carman, and on the morning of the murder I left home just before a quarter to four."

Blind passion, was it?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

To boil things down, Dr Strange, Robert Paul says in his paper interview: "It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market."

To be in Buck´s Row at exactly 3.45, he would have left his home in Foster Street just before 3.45, since he had a stretch of just a minute or two before he was in Buck´s Row.

Please observe that he would not have said "I left home at exactly just before 3.45" since such a semantic construction is not a viable one.

What remains is that you tried to nullify his exact giving of the time in his paper interview by contrasting it to a quotation where he would never have used the word "exactly". Moreover, you compare two time estimations given for two different venues as if they belonged to the same venue.

But one is the time given as he left his home.

And the other is the time he went up Buck´s Row.

To boot, you cut away that crucial information when presenting the "just before" quotation.

Why?

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Paul said he left home just before quarter to four and arrived at the crime scene at quarter to hour.
A contradiction?
Paul said he was aware Bucks Row was a haunt of gangs but that didn't prevent home from giving is name to the press and his workplace.

Any more desperate gambits from the 'Lechmere as a suspect' crew?

[Abby Normal]

Hi fish, lech
If lech is Polly's killer, then there is no way he left his house at 3:20 or 3:30 correct? He would have to have the time to meet her, engage with her and walk to her to the murder spot and then killer her. Unless she was already in bucks row when he came upon her, but what are the chances of that? And if that luck happened then he also just happened to have his knife on him. Which then begs the question-
Do you think he always carried his murder weapon with him, or just on the days he planned to kill?

If he always carried his knife and Polly just happened to be in bucks row then perhaps the 3:20 or 3:30 time could be correct, and he just got very lucky she was right there.
But serial killers like to be in control, especially the anal record keeping lech, so it seems unlikely he always carried his knife and killed just when the chance arose. Most, if not all, serial killers, plan there attacks, troll for victims and I would imagine lech the ripper would have done so also.
So then if he was Polly's killer he more than like likely left his house before 3:20 to give himself time for the hunt correct?

So if this was the case then why would he give a time to police when he left his house that does not jibe with arriving at bucks row at slightly before 3:45?
Surely the anal lech would have known that to make his false timings fit he would need to say he left his house at approx. 3:37 ?

[Lechmere]

Abby
If he left home at 3.30 he would have been at Brown's Stable Yard at 3.37 or a little before.
It would take less than 4 minutes to strangle and carry out the mutilations.
That takes us to 3.41, or even 3.40
There are a spare 4 or 5 minutes for him to have actually walked down Whitechapel Road, rather than going straight to Bucks Row, meet Nichols, and get to Bucks Row for 3.45.
If he left at 3.30 he could have done it although it would have been tight.
If he left at 3.20 they would have been no rush.
I doubt the 'engagement' aspect took more than a few seconds.
The time consuming part would probably be that she did not walk very quickly.
This has all been timed out and the distances walked with stop watches.

My guess is that he went out with his knife when he was 'in the mood'.
My guess is that he could not be totally unrealistic as to the time he left home in case his wife was asked.

[Abby Normal]

Abby
If he left home at 3.30 he would have been at Brown's Stable Yard at 3.37 or a little before.
It would take less than 4 minutes to strangle and carry out the mutilations.
That takes us to 3.41, or even 3.40
There are a spare 4 or 5 minutes for him to have actually walked down Whitechapel Road, rather than going straight to Bucks Row, meet Nichols, and get to Bucks Row for 3.45.
If he left at 3.30 he could have done it although it would have been tight.
If he left at 3.20 they would have been no rush.
I doubt the 'engagement' aspect took more than a few seconds.
The time consuming part would probably be that she did not walk very quickly.
This has all been timed out and the distances walked with stop watches.

My guess is that he went out with his knife when he was 'in the mood'.
My guess is that he could not be totally unrealistic as to the time he left home in case his wife was asked.

Thanks lech
Clear and concise explanation. And totally possible.
Thanks for the response.

[Lechmere]

Blimey

[moonbegger]

Hello Abby & Lech

Surely the anal lech would have known that to make his false timings fit he would need to say he left his house at approx. 3:37 ?

All Lechmere had to say was , Paul mentioned it was 3.45 so I guess , being five minutes away I must have left around 3.40 ish .. No suspicion , No doubt , No need to Investigate further .

But saying I don't really know , maybe 3.20 , maybe 3.30 .. No matter how stupid you may assume your inquisitor to be .. you can be sure to expect to be asked more questions , and only then would you be risking a home visit .

By manipulating Pauls exact timing to suit his own requirements , he would be out of the frame , but instead he chooses to put himself squarely in the center ??

So he chooses on two occasions ( actually three ) to put himself squarely in the center of the "Look at me , I'm guilty" frame ..
Firstly , with all the time in the world , he stands there , Splattered with fresh blood and murder weapon at hand , and waits for the approaching Paul to get even closer .

.. But wait , Paul is not interested and try's to hurry on by without even noticing , But wait (2) he pulls him back and insists , he checks out this woman that he has just butchered over in the dark stable entrance ...

But not content with dancing around that deadly flame twice without getting burned .. he chooses to slip on his dancing shoes a third time , this time knowing that he is placing himself a possible 25 minutes ahead of Paul , he informs the Police " I'm not sure , 3.20 or 3.30 " .. Really ??

Does this sound like our cunning villain who has evaded capture for over 125years ? Sounds more like Mr Magoo than Jack the Ripper .. oh yeah , and

My guess is that he could not be totally unrealistic as to the time he left home in case his wife was asked.

Would that be Mrs Cross or Mrs Lechmere ?

cheers

moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

Fish ,

I have always wanted a specialist in this topic, so it´s good you have finally arrived. Now, Victorian timekeeping and it´s flaws...?

There are plenty , and I mean plenty of well documented examples within this case alone Fish , and I have neither the incline nor the time to document them all for you .. and in all fairness , we both know that if I did
it would be like a scene in "This is Spinal Tap" movie, in particular the 13 digit amp scene ...

I could quote all the timing issues for you .. and your response would be

" yeah but this one said Exactly "

cheers

moonbegger

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

It is generally agreed that Victorian public clocks were not synchronised, unreliable and that accurate personal pocket watches were an expensive luxury.

How is it then that PC Mizen, PC Neill, Robert Paul and Charles Cross [Lechmere] contrived to coordinate the time of their various adventures at exactly 3.45 am?

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

Hi All,

It is generally agreed that Victorian public clocks were not synchronised, unreliable and that accurate personal pocket watches were an expensive luxury.

How is it then that PC Mizen, PC Neill, Robert Paul and Charles Cross [Lechmere] contrived to coordinate the time of their various adventures at exactly 3.45 am?

Regards,

Simon

They didn't, they approximated. Standard procedure

Monty

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

Standard procedure by whom?

Honestly, you're full of it.

Lucky I love you.

Regards,

Simon

[Lechmere]

Moonbeggar
As you are aware I have suggested, he may have felt compelled to give those times as his wife may have been up and awake and aware. He did not know at that stage that the police would not give his house a call.
You may be incredulous that his timings were not picked apart. Indeed they should have been. Just as Lechmere should have been looked at properly at the time by the police. But we have absolutely no reason to think he was looked into at all closely, and indeed reason to suppose he wasn’t looked at closely.
He was passed over just as various later day would-be investigators pass him over.

I would question your interpretation of Lechmere twice dancing into the deadly flame.
It has been pointed out that running like a rabbit would be the dangerous uncontrolled course of action. You will find that Lechmere’s actions in approaching Paul are consistent with those of a psychopathic serial killer and so not to be marvelled at.
When Paul passed him, just before Lechmere tapped him on his shoulder, you seem to think that Lechmere could have just refrained from tapping him and all would have been well. This really is an extraordinary claim to make. Paul had yet to reach the body (you don’t seem to realise this). If Lechmere had approached him and then said nothing, while Paul proceeded and moments later found the body, then what?
I’ll leave you in the hope and expectation that you can join up the hypothetical dots.

And yes, timings were estimates.
But I refer you back to what I said earlier.
In the case of a freshly discovered corpse, you can do no better than look at the timings as given. This is all we can do. If they can be shown to fit very nicely indeed, then you can expect nothing more in terms of building a case.
There isn't a single other 'suspect' (if it is credible to compare any of the other 'suspects' with Lechmere) who can be discussed in this manner.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lechmere,

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

Hi Monty,

Standard procedure by whom?

Honestly, you're full of it.

Lucky I love you.

Regards,

Simon

Gee Simon,

Its usually me with the $hitty attitude, I thought better of you.

Constables, when unaware of the exact time an incident occurred, approximate it to the nearest 5 minutes of when they think it occurred. It is standard procedure when noting in pocket books.

However, what do I know huh? I only did it for 6 years.

Monty