A Cross by any other name...smells like JtR?

[MrBarnett]

Fish,

One small observation about the 30yd assertion - surely the relevant distance is between Lech's route and where he met the women, rather than where they were killed.

This has the advantage of a possible meet with Kelly in Commercial Street, bang on his route, rather than a hypothetical 'short cut' along the worst street in London.

MrB

[Fisherman]

Don't call the Admin yet, Fish.
He would discover that I asked something concerning Lechmere, while Fish was the first to talk about Hutch.

Anyway, you're right, that's Lechmere's thread, and it seems to me that you've changed your mind about several points that didn't fit the Crossmere theory.

Am I right ?

Yes I am !

Cheers

Have you ever been wrong, David? On anything at all? No?

Well, there´s your answer for you then!

Fisherman
6 ft 4

[lynn cates]

reasonable

Hello Edward. Thanks.

"I would suggest he would have lied about just enough to clear himself but stuck to the truth as much as possible, and he wouldn't have wanted to be too useful as he wouldn't want to be retained."

Only too delighted to treat testimony this way. Where are the suggested lies? Please be specific so I may make a reasonable judgment.

Cheers.
LC

[Patrick S]

Reply to Fisherman

Smith staggered over her treshold at around 4 AM, mortally wounded.

By her account, she was attacked by a ‘gang’ of (three or four) ‘youths’. Claimed she was raped a beaten. Certainly not JtR’s MO. This murder has very little in common with the others on your list, save its geographic relationship to Lechmere’s route to work.

If she’s a Ripper victim, why protect Lechmere (by saying it was a gang of kids)?

Why was she not killed?

Why the different MO?

Tabram was judged to have died shortly before 3 AM.

She was spotted lying on the landing by Crowe at 3:30am. The time of death is nearer the time given by Killeen of around 2:30am. This jibes with PC Barrett’s account. He spoke to the likely murderer’s chum who was waiting for him while he was ‘off with a girl’ (i.e. Tabram). I once considered Tabram a Ripper victim. I no longer do. The time of death dovetails perfectly with Barrett’s interrogation of the soldier. Their conversation likely took place as Tabram was being killed. We have quite a different method of killing, as well. Likely the soldier lost control. This was a rage killing.

Nichols died at around 3.40-3.45, seemingly.

Discussed.

Chapman was judged by Phillips to have died at the very latest 4.30, but probably before that hour.

Phillips is wrong here. You need to be right to fit your narrative. Richardson enters the backyard of 29 Hanbury and sees nothing at 4:45am. Long says she saw Chapman with a man at 5:30am. Soon after Cadosch hears what may well have been the murder at #29. These three times line up rather well. Thus, you must hold that Lechmere was out on his cart for this murder, walking back to the market while his cart was unloaded? We know that the killer had blood on his person. Blood was transferred from his clothing to fence of #29 as he walked out.


Kelly is hardest to determine a TOD death for, but Prater heard the "Oh, murder!" scream at some time before 4 AM.

I believe the killer left Kelly’s room at just before 6am (Cox). I believe the killer spent the better part of two hours with her body.

Lechmere said he walked to work at 3.20 or 3.30, but may of course have added some extra time if he wanted to.

May? Anyone MAY have done anything! How can you establish a pattern of times and then say, “But he could have gone earlier…….if he wanted to?” What good, then, is the pattern?


Five victims. All attacked along the roads Lechmere would logically have used when going to work and quite probably at times that fit his trekking time.

You assume this is his trek to work. One of several he COULD have taken.

Stride died in Berner Street. Berner Street was situated north of Cable Street, where Lechmeres mother, Maria Louisa, lived together with Lechmeres daughter, and represented a thorougfare on the way home to Doveton Street after a visti to his mothers.
Stride died at 12.45-01.00, and it was on a Saturday, Lechmeres day off from work.

So now he kills on days off? I thought he killed on his way to work? What good does mapping his route to work with the killings do if we factor in that two were committed on his day off?

Eddowes died in Mitre Square, at 1.45, approximately. The square could be reached from Berner Street by employing Lechmeres old working route from James Street to Broad Street.
Eddowes died the same night as Stride.

So we use working routes for him on days he’s not working? You make the rules, you break the rules.

Mitre Square was also quite close to Pickfords in Broad Street, where Lechmere could have dumped trophies. With him from Mitre Square, the Ripper brought a kidney and a womb.

He’s dumping trophies at work? And no one saw that? He’s killing women on his way to work? And no one saw a thing? Ever? No reports. No suspicion? Until now.


My suggestion is that he took the apron piece and the trophies to Pickfords in Broad Street, washed up there and stashed the body parts, and that he left for Doveton Street, where he lived, afterwards. If he used for example the narrow Devonshire terrace after having left Broad Street, then Goulston Street - where the apron was at 2.55 but apparently not at 2.20 - would be smack, bang on his route home.

But he was off of work? Could he come and go at Pickfords whenever he liked? Did he have keys? He was a carman, right? Not the site manager, correct? No one would say, “Hey, Lechmere! What are you doing here washing up in the middle of the night, on your day off…..?”

If Lechmere was not the killer - then why is it that the killings appear along the routes to his work or from his mothers place, and at times that seem to roughly tally logically with his movements?

Because the killer was a local man, just like Lechmere. This is 1888. Primary mode of transport is your feet. If you don’t work next door, you have to take it on the hoof. The further you walk, the more places you are going to come in close proximity to. Lechmere found the first body. That tells me that he shared one thing in common with the killer: Geography. When he found the body he was where you’d expect him to be – on his way to work.

Given the hundreds and thousand streets that there were in the East End, why does not a single one of the murders occur on a street where Lehmere did NOT have any reason to pass through?

I actually like this point.

And why is it that Stride and Eddowes -the only victims that were killed relatively early in the evening, before Lechmere´s work trek time - were both killed on the same Saturday, leaving us with the possibility that he did the deeds after having visited his mother and daughter.

I like this point, too. But I don’t buy he could use Pickfords as a place to store trophies and clean up. That’s very unlikely.

[Fisherman]

Fish,

One small observation about the 30yd assertion - surely the relevant distance is between Lech's route and where he met the women, rather than where they were killed.

This has the advantage of a possible meet with Kelly in Commercial Street, bang on his route, rather than a hypothetical 'short cut' along the worst street in London.

MrB

Yes - and that´s been covered before when it comes to Kelly. It was Ben - of all people - that found the short route leading through Dorset Street.
Anyhow, you are of course correct that what matters is where he met the women. It is however somewhat difficult to establish.

Smith claimed to have arrived at the corner where she was attacked after having walked there from Whitechapel Church.

We know that Tabram supposedly took a client to George Yard before on the night, so she can be placed there to some degree.

Nichols could well have been picked up in Whitechapel Road.

Chapman was not seen in the hours leading up to Davis finding her. It is hard to establish where she was picked up. It was said that there were prostitutes plying their trade in the area where she was found.

... and we have already cleared the Kelly case with double propositions.

At any rate, it would be a safe bet that any street prostitute would have venues nearby where she showcased herself, to go and do the business in. So they will arguably all have traded in close proximity to the Lechmere treks.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Smith staggered over her treshold at around 4 AM, mortally wounded.

By her account, she was attacked by a ‘gang’ of (three or four) ‘youths’. Claimed she was raped a beaten. Certainly not JtR’s MO. This murder has very little in common with the others on your list, save its geographic relationship to Lechmere’s route to work.

If she’s a Ripper victim, why protect Lechmere (by saying it was a gang of kids)?

Why was she not killed?

Why the different MO?

Tabram was judged to have died shortly before 3 AM.

She was spotted lying on the landing by Crowe at 3:30am. The time of death is nearer the time given by Killeen of around 2:30am. This jibes with PC Barrett’s account. He spoke to the likely murderer’s chum who was waiting for him while he was ‘off with a girl’ (i.e. Tabram). I once considered Tabram a Ripper victim. I no longer do. The time of death dovetails perfectly with Barrett’s interrogation of the soldier. Their conversation likely took place as Tabram was being killed. We have quite a different method of killing, as well. Likely the soldier lost control. This was a rage killing.

Nichols died at around 3.40-3.45, seemingly.

Discussed.

Chapman was judged by Phillips to have died at the very latest 4.30, but probably before that hour.

Phillips is wrong here. You need to be right to fit your narrative. Richardson enters the backyard of 29 Hanbury and sees nothing at 4:45am. Long says she saw Chapman with a man at 5:30am. Soon after Cadosch hears what may well have been the murder at #29. These three times line up rather well. Thus, you must hold that Lechmere was out on his cart for this murder, walking back to the market while his cart was unloaded? We know that the killer had blood on his person. Blood was transferred from his clothing to fence of #29 as he walked out.


Kelly is hardest to determine a TOD death for, but Prater heard the "Oh, murder!" scream at some time before 4 AM.

I believe the killer left Kelly’s room at just before 6am (Cox). I believe the killer spent the better part of two hours with her body.

Lechmere said he walked to work at 3.20 or 3.30, but may of course have added some extra time if he wanted to.

May? Anyone MAY have done anything! How can you establish a pattern of times and then say, “But he could have gone earlier…….if he wanted to?” What good, then, is the pattern?


Five victims. All attacked along the roads Lechmere would logically have used when going to work and quite probably at times that fit his trekking time.

You assume this is his trek to work. One of several he COULD have taken.

Stride died in Berner Street. Berner Street was situated north of Cable Street, where Lechmeres mother, Maria Louisa, lived together with Lechmeres daughter, and represented a thorougfare on the way home to Doveton Street after a visti to his mothers.
Stride died at 12.45-01.00, and it was on a Saturday, Lechmeres day off from work.

So now he kills on days off? I thought he killed on his way to work? What good does mapping his route to work with the killings do if we factor in that two were committed on his day off?

Eddowes died in Mitre Square, at 1.45, approximately. The square could be reached from Berner Street by employing Lechmeres old working route from James Street to Broad Street.
Eddowes died the same night as Stride.

So we use working routes for him on days he’s not working? You make the rules, you break the rules.

Mitre Square was also quite close to Pickfords in Broad Street, where Lechmere could have dumped trophies. With him from Mitre Square, the Ripper brought a kidney and a womb.

He’s dumping trophies at work? And no one saw that? He’s killing women on his way to work? And no one saw a thing? Ever? No reports. No suspicion? Until now.


My suggestion is that he took the apron piece and the trophies to Pickfords in Broad Street, washed up there and stashed the body parts, and that he left for Doveton Street, where he lived, afterwards. If he used for example the narrow Devonshire terrace after having left Broad Street, then Goulston Street - where the apron was at 2.55 but apparently not at 2.20 - would be smack, bang on his route home.

But he was off of work? Could he come and go at Pickfords whenever he liked? Did he have keys? He was a carman, right? Not the site manager, correct? No one would say, “Hey, Lechmere! What are you doing here washing up in the middle of the night, on your day off…..?”

If Lechmere was not the killer - then why is it that the killings appear along the routes to his work or from his mothers place, and at times that seem to roughly tally logically with his movements?

Because the killer was a local man, just like Lechmere. This is 1888. Primary mode of transport is your feet. If you don’t work next door, you have to take it on the hoof. The further you walk, the more places you are going to come in close proximity to. Lechmere found the first body. That tells me that he shared one thing in common with the killer: Geography. When he found the body he was where you’d expect him to be – on his way to work.

Given the hundreds and thousand streets that there were in the East End, why does not a single one of the murders occur on a street where Lehmere did NOT have any reason to pass through?

I actually like this point.

And why is it that Stride and Eddowes -the only victims that were killed relatively early in the evening, before Lechmere´s work trek time - were both killed on the same Saturday, leaving us with the possibility that he did the deeds after having visited his mother and daughter.

I like this point, too. But I don’t buy he could use Pickfords as a place to store trophies and clean up. That’s very unlikely.

Whoa - there´s just too many questions to answer here, Patrick. And I think some of them are not very good - why would he NOT kill on a Saturday, if he felt like it, for example? When did I tie myself to a suggestion that he ONLY killed en route to work...?
And why do you say that there were several ways he could have taken to work? There were two thoroughfares only in an east-westernly direction. He could of course walk streets in a northern/southernly direction too, but that would not take him where he was going, would it?

If there is any one or two of these questins you want answer, say so and I will. Otherwise, I must try and have a life inbetween answering questions out here too.

By the way - the thread you opened, I will return to it now and ask you a question or two for a change.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

frustrated

Hello Patrick.

"If she’s a Ripper victim, why protect Lechmere (by saying it was a gang of kids)?"

Merely a lie. Victims sometimes fall in love with their assailants. Don't believe me? Consult a social science text.

"Why was she not killed?"

He was interrupted.

"Why the different MO?"

Umm, why can't 1990's style sexual serial killers change their MO?

Forgive me, my frustrations are showing.

Cheers.
LC

[Patrick S]

Whoa - there´s just too many questions to answer here, Patrick. And I think some of them are not very good - why would he NOT kill on a Saturday, if he felt like it, for example? When did I tie myself to a suggestion that he ONLY killed en route to work...?
And why do you say that there were several ways he could have taken to work? There were two thoroughfares only in an east-westernly direction. He could of course walk streets in a northern/southernly direction too, but that would not take him where he was going, would it?

If there is any one or two of these questins you want answer, say so and I will. Otherwise, I must try and have a life inbetween answering questions out here too.

By the way - the thread you opened, I will return to it now and ask you a question or two for a change.

The best,
Fisherman

You looked at Lechmere because he was found by the body, gave a 'false' name, and his trek to work. Now you want to take two of the seven murders you ascribe to him and place them on his days off. Was not Tabram killed on Bank Holiday? Were Pickford's drivers off of work then, too? If so, that's near 50% of these murders that occured when your suspect was not working. Ah. But you had your suspect before your collected the facts. And you use them to suit your premature conclusion.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I received a telephone call today out of the blue from someone who asked me the strength of a rumour doing the rounds that Blink Films [UK] in association with the Smithsonian Channel [US] and Channel 5 [UK] are making a JtR documentary based on the preposterous premise of Charles Lechmere/Cross having been the perpetrator.

It was breaking news to me.

Please don't shoot your humble messenger.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

You looked at Lechmere because he was found by the body, gave a 'false' name, and his trek to work. Now you want to take two of the seven murders you ascribe to him and place them on his days off. Was not Tabram killed on Bank Holiday? Were Pickford's drivers off of work then, too? If so, that's near 50% of these murders that occured when your suspect was not working. Ah. But you had your suspect before your collected the facts. And you use them to suit your premature conclusion.

The only two victims that were killed when Lechmere had a day off were Stride and Eddowes. Working people did not have Bank holidays off, as I understand it.

And I did not take two victims and placed them on his day off - he did.

I collected facts for nearly thirty years before arriving at Lechmere.

Now pop over to that thread of yours, and I will take you for a spin ...!

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

sigh

Hello Simon. Good to see your post. Hope you are well.

Have you perused this thread yet?

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

I have.

It's major bollocks.

I hope I find you and Deborah in fine fettle.

Regards,

Simon

[MrBarnett]

Major Bollocks? Is he a suspect?

[lynn cates]

chain of command

Hello Simon. Thanks. Not too bad for old folk.

Major Bollocks? Sounds a bit like a military man.

But, of course, Major Bollocks must still take orders from General Payne N. T. Haas. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

In Britain, bollocks is the ultimate measure of nonsense.

So, you have bollocks, severe bollocks, complete bollocks, utter bollocks, and major bollocks.

Cross/Lechmere is in the latter category.

Regards,

Simon