Was he lying?

[Geddy2112]

I agree I would imagine Pickford's certainly had some form of time keeping methods. I'll just ring them and ask if they have any records of time keeping for Aug 1888... oh bugger wait a bit.

Now that would blow a lot problems one way or the other if those very available...

[Paddy Goose]

... How did the Lechmere theory start? I'm guessing with the name thing then fitting things up around that. I presume the name thing was the eureka moment.

Yes Geddy it was the name thing.

Thank you Hurley for transcribing the article. But yes that article and others were about Cross. Pre-Lechmere.

Somebody, I don't know who, discovered the Doveton street address came back to Lechmere. But Ed & Christer wrote an article in the Telegraph in 2012 around that and discussion ensued here.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9512928/Was-Jack-the-Ripper-a-cart-driver-from-Bethnal-Green.html

A dozen years later I remain vehemently opposed to Ed & Fish's theory because my dear old dad drove for a living and the idea of him murdering on his way to work makes me want to sh*t little green apples.

Can someone make a pie?

[John Wheat]

Yes Geddy it was the name thing.

Thank you Hurley for transcribing the article. But yes that article and others were about Cross. Pre-Lechmere.

Somebody, I don't know who, discovered the Doveton street address came back to Lechmere. But Ed & Christer wrote an article in the Telegraph in 2012 around that and discussion ensued here.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9512928/Was-Jack-the-Ripper-a-cart-driver-from-Bethnal-Green.html

A dozen years later I remain vehemently opposed to Ed & Fish's theory because my dear old dad drove for a living and the idea of him murdering on his way to work makes me want to sh*t little green apples.

Can someone make a pie?

I remain vehemently opposed to Ed and Fish's theory as its terrible.

[Filby]

"On Friday morning he left home about half-past-three to go to work, and passing through Buck's Row he saw on the opposite sound something lying against a gateway. In the dark, he could not tell at first what it was. It looked like a tarpaulin sheet, but walking to the middle of the road he saw that it was the figure of a woman.

At the same time, he heard a man about forty yards away coming up Buck's Row in the direction that the witness had come from.

He stepped back and waited for the new-comer, who started on one side, as if he feared that the witness was about to knock him down. The witness said to the man, "Come and look over here. There's a woman." - Lechmere's Testimony.

This is interesting and of course we know anything is possible lacking positive timelines and motives, but I cannot accept that JtR was killing prostitutes on the way to work. I would go so far as to say JtR was likely not employed at all, at least by day which leads me to lean more towards Koz in this respect.

[The Baron]

Well said Mr. Filby.

Lechmere had some 12 kids to feed, they added to them sick imaginations that he fulfilled to the letter.

If those who push these funny theories have to work hard like Lechmere, you wouldn't have heard such things.


The Baron

[Newbie]

We do not know. I always find this 'hearing' someone then estimated how far away they are is very inaccurate. It might not have been in those days it might have been something people were adapted to be able to tell more accurately.



There is nothing in the evidence to suggest it was. He was 'behind time' so maybe walking a bit faster, or scared of the street/area so again maybe walking faster but there is no evidence to suggest a jogging speed. If he was jogging or faster would this change Lechmere's perception of the footsteps noise?



Did he? Sorry missed that in the testimonies, can you point that out?



Again did he? 'He walked into the middle of the road, and saw that it was the figure of a woman. He then heard the footsteps of a man going up Buck's-row' He heard the footsteps whilst he was standing still in the middle of the road, Paul confirms this by saying - 'he saw in Buck's-row a man standing in the middle of the road'

Are you doing a Christer here and inventing scenarios to fit a narrative perhaps?

I'm trying to come up with various possibilities that can explain how Paul missed Lech on Bath street, while walking under the lights of the Albion Brewery, but then was only about 40 yards away when Lech finally heard him, turned around, and spotted him.

The most Lechmere friendly version is that Lech finally heard Paul's steps, turned around, and then had to wait 8? seconds for him to finally see Paul about 40 yards away. In this scenario, Paul is not traveling at blistering speeds ... although he's still going about 3.8mph, much faster than he need go. But here, Lech suddenly loses interest in the poor woman's plight and waits 30 seconds for Paul to arrive, while standing a few steps away from the body.

The least Lechmere friendly version is that Lech finally heard Paul's steps, turned around, and then immediately saw Paul about 30 yards away. In the second case, Paul would have to be jogging to make up that ground.


Which one do you prefer? I prefer the 2nd but used the first case to give Lech the benefit of the doubt.

I am using Lechmere's average speed as a guide as to how fast Paul would have to be moving.
Typically, Lech leaves at around 3:30 am; arrives at Pickfords at 4 am: that is 1.8 miles in a 30 minute walk.

So, Lech is walking at a rate of 3.6 mph .... that's a pretty good clip.
If he walked slower, he'd have to leave earlier.

Go to your local fitness center and crank the treading machine up to 4 mph ..... its fast.

Paul, only needs to go at a rate of 3.4 mph to make it two work on time that day .... if he arrived at the entrance to Buck's row at 3:45 am, which is what he believed the time to be.

He walked that route from 30 Forster street to Corbett's court for 11 years .... he must of developed a very good sense of what the correct speed should be to get to work on time.

[Fiver]

I'm trying to come up with various possibilities that can explain how Paul missed Lech on Bath street, while walking under the lights of the Albion Brewery, but then was only about 40 yards away when Lech finally heard him, turned around, and spotted him.

The distance from Robert Paul's home to the Albion Brewery was slightly less than 40 yards, so Lechmere would have already passed that intersection and Paul would have had no chance of seeing him.

[Newbie]

There's a decent chance that Robert Paul would have just kept walking if Charles Lechmere hadn't stopped him.

Yeah, there was a good chance of that.
PC Neil seems to have discovered the body while walking down Buck's row on the same side of the street as the body.
It was pretty dark that night. PC Neil switches from describing seeing a "figure" to "deceased" female in his testimony only when astride the body.

According to websites on historical moon phases, August 31st 1888 was a 'day' with a waning crescent moon,
36 % illuminated and the Moon was a few days from its apogee (farthest distance away).
The moon is low in the south east sky during Summer: maybe rose around midnight that night.
It probably did not appear over the buildings aligning the north side of the street.

https://nineplanets.org/moon/phase/8-31-1888/

https://www.moongiant.com/calendar/august/1888/

I read somewhere that there was 50 % cloud cover: it rained the day before.

I'm wondering if Lechmere could even make out the sex of the figure from the vantage point of the middle of the road.
The body was not contrast against the white of the sidewalk, but the dark of the pavement at the entrance to Brown's stable.




Check out the waxing crescent moon at the end of this month, and see if you can make out a dark figure contrast against a dark pavement at night. If it is a cloudy night ..... all the better. The illumination will be 32% - good luck! I had problem doing this a week ago.

[Newbie]

Moon phases

* Note: 50 % of the moon illuminated provides around 10 % of the brightness of a full moon.


April 3rd 1888: waning gibbous moon: 55.6 % illuminated; 376,000 miles away

• Emma Smith’ murder

—-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


August 7 1888: waning crescent moon: 0.6 % illuminated; 385,000 miles away

• Martha Tabrum’s murder

August 31 1888: waning crescent moon: 36 % illuminated; 400,000 miles away, 50 % cloud cover

• Polly Nichols’ murder

September 8th 1888: waxing crescent moon: 1.7 % illuminated, 369,000 miles away

• Annie Chapman’s murder

September 30th 1888: waning crescent moon: 34 % illuminated, 392,000 miles away

• Double murder event

November 9th 1888: waxing crescent moon: 36.5 % illuminated, 375,000 miles away

• Mary Kelly’s murder

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 20th 1888: waxing gibbous moon: 92 % illuminated, 375,000 miles away

• Rose Myllet murder/accidental hanging

July 7th, 1889: waxing gibbous moon: 64 % illuminated, 373,000 miles away

• Alice Mckenzie murder

[Fiver]

Paul, only needs to go at a rate of 3.4 mph to make it two work on time that day .... if he arrived at the entrance to Buck's row at 3:45 am, which is what he believed the time to be.

He walked that route from 30 Forster street to Corbett's court for 11 years .... he must of developed a very good sense of what the correct speed should be to get to work on time.

Where are you getting the 11 years?

Robert Paul's marriage record shows that in 1879 he was living at 108 North Street. Sometime between then and 1881, Robert Paul had moved to 30 Foster Street. Which means at the time of the Nichols murder, Paul had been living on Foster Street for 7 to 9 years.

We also don't know when Robert Paul started working at Corbett's Court. It could have predated his move to Foster Street or it could have happened only weeks before the Nichols murder.

[Newbie]

The distance from Robert Paul's home to the Albion Brewery was slightly less than 40 yards, so Lechmere would have already passed that intersection and Paul would have had no chance of seeing him.

The distance from the corner of Forster / Bath street to the corner of Bath / Brady was 55 yards.

The further the distance Lech starts out ahead of Paul, the faster Paul needs to scramble to close the gap to 30 - 40 yards when finally seen by Lech.

[Newbie]

Newbie maybe an important factor to place in would be the distance/time taken for Lechmere to get from 22 Doveton St to the bottom of Forster Street. That really should be the place the calculations should start since that is where they are constant for both men, distance wise.

Perhaps Geddy.

But we only know two times .... his typical departure time: which seems to be 3:30 am,
and his 4 am arrival time at work.

The time 3.6 mph is an average .... he can go slower or faster than it during the course of his walk, but typically people maintain a steady rate when walking from one place to another, particularly when it is a daily routine.

We don't know when he typically gets to the bottom of Forster street, and can only estimate it based on the above ... to me, it doesn't even matter when he arrives in terms of an exact hour and minute, because the narrowness of the problem I defined does not require precision in this.

My calculations do begin at the bottom of Forster street btw: Lechmere's average walking speed for the trip being used in the calculations.

[Newbie]

Where are you getting the 11 years?

Robert Paul's marriage record shows that in 1879 he was living at 108 North Street. Sometime between then and 1881, Robert Paul had moved to 30 Foster Street. Which means at the time of the Nichols murder, Paul had been living on Foster Street for 7 to 9 years.

We also don't know when Robert Paul started working at Corbett's Court. It could have predated his move to Foster Street or it could have happened only weeks before the Nichols murder.

I got it from Ed Stowe .... he could be wrong.

I don't communicate with Mr. Stowe.

I'll look it up again.

[Newbie]

Robert Paul thought it was dangerous. Charles Lechmere had grown up in Tiger Bay, which Lechmerians love to proclaim was one of the most dangerous parts of the East End.



Period pictures show brick, not stone buildings. Bucks Row was not the echo chamber that some people make it out to be.

There are a lot perception variables that we don't have here. We don't know how good Lechmere's hearing was compared to PC Neil's. We don't know how loudly Robert Paul walked compared to PC Thain. Also, PC Neil would have been facing west, making it easier to hear PC Thain in front of him. Paul was behind Lechmere, making Paul harder to hear.

Again, it is your word against PC Neil .... he was there, you were not.

If you are arguing that Lechmere didn't have a very good sense of hearing,
and Paul just didn't bother to mention it .... for some reason,
you have the perfect right to stick to this position .... I guess it fits into the anything is possible category.

However, you would have more difficulty in explainnig why Lech finally heard the footsteps when he still was not only walking,
but occupied in examining visually the body.

There is a good reason why this would be the most unlikely time for him to actually hear the footsteps.


From Peter Whybrow, director of the Semel Institute for Neurosciences and human behavior at the University of California at Los Angeles:


“ The reason we can’t multitask hearing and vision is these two senses share access to a part of the brain, the association cortex, whose job it is to integrate all incoming information. In reality, this ability to shut out sound when we are focusing on a visual task is an asset."

So, the problem lies well beyond just saying that Lechmere had bad hearing, or that PC Neil had supreme hearing.

[Newbie]

Auditory masking is an antiquated theory?

That will be news to the actual scientists.

Not the same thing fiver.

Here is an example of masking noises ( a vacuum cleaner in this case):
Let us say that for a given individual, the sound of a cat scratching a post in an otherwise quiet environment is first audible at a level of 10 dB SPL. However, in the presence of a masking noise (for example, a vacuum cleaner that is running simultaneously) that same individual cannot detect the sound of the cat scratching unless the level of the scratching sound is at least 26 dB SPL. We would say that the unmasked threshold for that individual for the target sound (i.e., the cat scratching) is 10 dB SPL, while the masked threshold is 26 dB SPL. The amount of masking is simply the difference between these two thresholds: 16 dB.

A vacuum cleaner, a drill hammer, car traffic ..... these are sounds generated external to us.

Our example is a self generated sound: Lechemere's foosteps. There is an evolutionary advantage for the brain to ignore the sound generated from one's footsteps, just likes there is an advantage in ignoring our own smells.

There is active research going on in how the brain goes about ignoring self produced repetitive sounds. That it does it is not open to dispute.